Ok so I have a 2006 Ultra, I put the Tmax, zippers A/C and D&D Fatcats on. The bike just didn't run right after and I went from about 40 mpg to around 30 so I knew there was problem. I took itinto a local shop (well trusted) and they put it on a dyno. They're saying that the Tmax was never put into closed loop (which I know I did when I installed it) so some howit turned itself off,and that it ran on open loop which in turn has now messed up the O2 sensers. My question is if I was given the correct base map shouldn't it have run in open loop just fine? My understanding was/is that the auto tune just fine tunes from the base map is that not correct? So maybe I'm screwed up. I did contact Zippers when the bike was running rough and they asked me to send an email and describe all the problems and they could answer it within a few days. I don't really understand mapping so I figured I'd be better off just taking it to the shop. I have only talked to the shop by phone so far, but of course I will ask them the same questions. Anyone have any input?

 

I have dealt with Zippers in the past and they lost my business because of poor customer service & slow response.

 

I'm assuming you have an 02 bung on both headers, if so then WITHIN the TMax programming is a box that needs to be checked when setting the base map up that indicates setting up closed loop tuning. I can't say that I've heard of running in open loop messing up the 02 sensors either but stranger things have happened.

Iam inclined to thinkone of the 02 sensors failed FIRST therefore placing the bike inopen loop running off of 1 02 sensor............ineither casefigure out which 02 sensor failed, and replace it with a Bosch 17014 02 sensor and ride.

 

You must write to the module after checking the closed loop box or it will go back to open loop

It's always a good practice to "Read Module" to verify that all your settings are correct. I bet your sensors are OK....clear all offsets...learned fuel and IAC and reinitialize....if you still have problems, I'm sure Zippers will give you good support....they are slow to answer emails but I've always been able to talk to them on the phone

 

Trying to second guess what you may or may not have done when the unit was installed is useless.


These conditions vary somewhat depending on the firmware level in the TMax, but
what I can tell you from my 13 months of experience and 15K miles with the TMax unit is this::

(1) If the map was Closed Loop but the ECM at some point could not communicate
with the AT over the data bus, you should have gotten a "check engine" light.

(2) If the TMax had never communicated with the AT at all, then it would have automatically
defaulted back to open loop operation without a "check engine" light.

(3) Running in "open loop" DOES NOT by itself destroy or "mess-up" the O2 sensors.
I have run many miles in "open loop" for testing purposes without any O2 sensor problems.

(4) IF the "proper" map (absolute closest match) was preloaded, then the bike would have run
acceptably well, even in open loop. FWIW, my TMax unit was delivered with a less that optimum map,
and ran poorly until I loaded the correct map. No company is infalible, even Zippers. Mistakes happen.

(5) Even though there are many helpful diagnostic logs tmaintained by the TMax, your
acknowledged lack of ECM experience and understanding may preclude your use of them.

(6) IMHO, if your local shop (well trusted) told you that running in open loop somehow "messes-up" O2 sensors,
then you may want to re-evaluate that "well trusted" designation. Sensors do occasionally fail, but not due
to "open loop" operation. The bone stock HD system is only "closed loop" during idle and cruise,
the rest of the time it operates "open loop".

If we resided somewhat closer together, I would welcome the opportunity to help with
the problem and attempt to restore your faith in the TMax/AT system.

Unfortunately, troubleshooting long distance by forum is problematic at best.
Please PM if you want to, and Best of Luck to you.

06FXDBI-

 

I don't see how the open loop setting could damage the sensors, they are sending the info to the ECM and if the ECM is not accepting the info then it shouldn't cause problems. Sensors can fail, but I haven't heard of it from running in open loop and I have read a couple of hunderd pages of posts on the TMAT before and afterI purchased mine about 6 months and 10k miles ago.

 

Thanks for all the good information and help. I talked with Pete at Zippers awhile ago right now they are talking to my local shop which is a Zipper dealer. (not a Harley shop).

1. Here's what the local shop said, the Tmax was not in closed loop when he hooked up to it. So he put it in closed loop ran it a little and then shut it down and went to lucnch. When he returned he started the bike back up and it was in open loop again so it changed by itself at least twice Once when I put it in and once in the shop. He said the 02 sensers were ruined because the bike was running so rich. He said the Tmax was reading 14.3 on 02 and the actual was 10.3. This caused the sensers to basically soot up and they were not coming on so they didn't burn the contaminates off.

2. Here's what Zipper said they think the 02 sensers will come back after the bike runs with the system in closed loop. He also said that at this time they didn't know why it would kick itself out of closed loop. He said if the ECU was bad they would make it good. But he said they wouldn't cover the 02 sensers, so I said if the system caused the problem they should cover the sensers. I also said even if it ran in open loop it should have ran ok, if the map was even close running a 10.3 02 is not close. They told me when I bought the Tmax that the base map would work great and that with the autotune it would fine tune itself and it wouldn't need to be dyno'd

3. So right now the shop has the bike they are communicating with zippers and we will see what happens. I feel like they should replace the whole system, one of their dealers told them it kicks out of closed loop and no one seems to know why, they were also told that is what caused the senser failure.

So for the folks that have put the Tmax on and have lost a lot of gas milage, you need to have it put on a dyno its probably running very rich. My bike went from 40 mpg to around 30 mpg. not the first indication of a problem but a very difinitive one. I'll post the final verdict when it comes in. Once again thanks for the replys.
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Yikes!! An AFR at 10.3 will definitely hose an 02 sensor. I'm suprised fuel wasn't pouring out of your mufflers.[&:]

Let us know how it goes.

 

Update Pete at Zippers wants the whole unit back, he said if they test it and it checks bad then they will replace the whole unit. However if it does not kick out of closed loop then they will not replace the unit or the 02 sensers. Now this seems fair enough, except for two factors, one turnaround time is about 10 days and I'm on vacation right now. Secondly their dealer said it was bad, why don't they trust him? Also if they test the unit using the same manual that came with it and use it line for line then I don't have a problem but if they get a tech to make a bunch of changs that a lay person (myself) could not have done and wouldn't do then it's still not really a fair deal. They sell it as a plug and play as long as you follow the directions. Which I did line for line.
So anyway I can't ask for more then them replacing the whole unit if it checks bad, so I guess its wait and see. If the customer service is good I will sing their praises but if bad I will make sure everyone knows about it. I still think the unit is a great unit, but I also know that any product can have a defect. I just hope they understand that too.

 

Well it took almost a month, however Zippers did their testing on my T-Max and found that it was in fact a defective module. So they replaced the whole unit oxygen sensors included. I picked my bike up from the shop last night and only had the opportunity to ride it home about15 miles. But it did run out great, and I didn’t notice any problems as of yet. Hopefully I’ll get to put some miles on it this weekend and really wring it out. So the final is it took quite a bit longer then I would have liked, but in the end they did the right thing. So if you’re looking for a good ECU and a company that stands behind their product Zippers would be a good choice.