103" Stage II Hard Starting
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Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 554
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From: SoCal
The dealer I bought my SG from installed the 103" street legal kit with SERT before I bought the bike. They told me to ride the bike 500 miles and bring it back for a dyno tune.
This was the first tbw bike anyone at that dealership had ever tried to tune. They did a lousy job on the tune. The bike ran better than stock, but not up to it's potential and I was only getting 30 mpg at best. It also started hard.
I took it back and complained about the starting issue. They put a new starter clutch in and said that should do it. It didn't.
I took the bike to Wabash HD in Terra Haute, In. Scott Hunter told me right away that my starter was fine, I just needed my start up timing changed.
I fully believed that Scott knew what he was doing, so I had him add 10.5:1 domed pistons and performance heads before he tuned it.
I have only ridden the bike 4,000 miles since he tuned it, but all has been very well. More hp, tq and better mileage and easy starting.
Dennis
This was the first tbw bike anyone at that dealership had ever tried to tune. They did a lousy job on the tune. The bike ran better than stock, but not up to it's potential and I was only getting 30 mpg at best. It also started hard.
I took it back and complained about the starting issue. They put a new starter clutch in and said that should do it. It didn't.
I took the bike to Wabash HD in Terra Haute, In. Scott Hunter told me right away that my starter was fine, I just needed my start up timing changed.
I fully believed that Scott knew what he was doing, so I had him add 10.5:1 domed pistons and performance heads before he tuned it.
I have only ridden the bike 4,000 miles since he tuned it, but all has been very well. More hp, tq and better mileage and easy starting.
Dennis
Do you know if he installed compression releases or not?
Marc
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,847
Likes: 0
From: Missouri
Got my 103 done with about 300 mi on it and it does the same as your bike. Cold it starts fine hot it won't hardly turn over. Mine also was tuned with a canned map. I still believe it's in the tuning and when I get it dyno'ed when I get 6-7 hundred miles on it we'll see. I just think the start up timing plus being maybe a little tight is the problem not compression. I'll let you know.
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Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 554
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From: SoCal
I can't seem to get a clear idea as to the most efficient means to fix this hard starting problem. Here are the options as I see it:
1.Have electronic compression releases installed which means they have to pull the heads off again. Big bucks.
2.Go for a tuner and dyno tune at about $850 with no guarantee that retarding the timing is going to fix it.
3.Install a heavy duty 1.4 or 1.5 KW starter which is the cheapest fix.
Any suggestions from the experienced out there?
Thanks,
Marc
Elite HDF Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,351
Likes: 461
From: Illinois
Marc,
Scott installed compression releases on my performance heads, but only because I stepped up to 10.5:1 compression. There is no need for compression releases on a 103" with flat top pistons if it is tuned and timed properly.
Scott tells me that the canned maps will get close, but you have to work with the timing and experiment to get it just right for each bike.
If I had it to do over again, I would've just let Scott tune and time the bike without bumping up the compression. I am happy with my build, but I wish I would've rode it tuned properly before bumping up the compression and adding compression releases.
I am sure I am getting a little more now, but probably didn't gain all that much for the dollars spent. I am used to the compression releases now, but it took a bit to get used to them. My bike starts best now if I open both releases when it is cold, but it starts better hot with just the back one open. That didn't really make sense to me until Scott explained about the fuel being more combustible at the higher temps.
Dennis
Scott installed compression releases on my performance heads, but only because I stepped up to 10.5:1 compression. There is no need for compression releases on a 103" with flat top pistons if it is tuned and timed properly.
Scott tells me that the canned maps will get close, but you have to work with the timing and experiment to get it just right for each bike.
If I had it to do over again, I would've just let Scott tune and time the bike without bumping up the compression. I am happy with my build, but I wish I would've rode it tuned properly before bumping up the compression and adding compression releases.
I am sure I am getting a little more now, but probably didn't gain all that much for the dollars spent. I am used to the compression releases now, but it took a bit to get used to them. My bike starts best now if I open both releases when it is cold, but it starts better hot with just the back one open. That didn't really make sense to me until Scott explained about the fuel being more combustible at the higher temps.
Dennis
Elite HDF Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,351
Likes: 461
From: Illinois
I would like to add one more thing. My tuner doesn't like the automatic compression releases for two reasons. 1. They aren't as reliable as the manuals. They stick open or closed at times. 2. Some bikes start better at different temps with only one open instead of both of them. It doesn't take long trying different things to figure out what is best for your bike.
My best advice for you is to try to find someone who really knows how to time the bike. Your problems should go away then.
Dennis
My best advice for you is to try to find someone who really knows how to time the bike. Your problems should go away then.
Dennis
Thread Starter
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Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 554
Likes: 0
From: SoCal
Got my 103 done with about 300 mi on it and it does the same as your bike. Cold it starts fine hot it won't hardly turn over. Mine also was tuned with a canned map. I still believe it's in the tuning and when I get it dyno'ed when I get 6-7 hundred miles on it we'll see. I just think the start up timing plus being maybe a little tight is the problem not compression. I'll let you know.
I don't have a tuner currently and I really didn't want to put the money in it since the bike runs great except for this problem. If the starter would do it for the long term I'd go for that. What do you think?
Marc
Thread Starter
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Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 554
Likes: 0
From: SoCal
I would like to add one more thing. My tuner doesn't like the automatic compression releases for two reasons. 1. They aren't as reliable as the manuals. They stick open or closed at times. 2. Some bikes start better at different temps with only one open instead of both of them. It doesn't take long trying different things to figure out what is best for your bike.
My best advice for you is to try to find someone who really knows how to time the bike. Your problems should go away then.
Dennis
My best advice for you is to try to find someone who really knows how to time the bike. Your problems should go away then.
Dennis
Do you think that with the timing backed down and 205 PSI cranking pressure it should start without problems?Thanks,
Marc
Elite HDF Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,351
Likes: 461
From: Illinois
I say you are so deep in this already that spending the money for a fuel management system and a proper tune and time is the way to go in the long run. But that's easy for me to say because it's your money..............
Scott also told me that anyone who tunes a bike exactly the way HD teaches will never get it right. He said it takes experience to know what to change, where and when. Not everything is covered in the training manual.
Dennis
Scott also told me that anyone who tunes a bike exactly the way HD teaches will never get it right. He said it takes experience to know what to change, where and when. Not everything is covered in the training manual.
Dennis
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Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,847
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From: Missouri
One experiment I was thinking about would be to get it good and hot and then pull the plug caps and see if it turns over. If it does then it would be timing set too far advanced. If it doesn't turn over then its a problem with compression. If its purely compression and not timing causing it to fire back on itself, then a stronger starter should do it. If its timing and its kicking back it will just end up destroying any starter eventually I would think.
I don't have a tuner currently and I really didn't want to put the money in it since the bike runs great except for this problem. If the starter would do it for the long term I'd go for that. What do you think?
Marc
I don't have a tuner currently and I really didn't want to put the money in it since the bike runs great except for this problem. If the starter would do it for the long term I'd go for that. What do you think?
Marc
Thread Starter
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Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 554
Likes: 0
From: SoCal
I just don't think you can use a canned map and get everything out of the build. The $850 sounds high, are you talking about the older SERT or the super tuner? I think you can find SERT's on ebay fairly cheap. A dyno should run 60-70 an hr and 2-3 hrs should do it. I have a SERT and I'm just waiting for the break in to tune it. I just don't believe the problem is anything other than timing. I just hope my starter doesn't go before I find out.
Marc