103" Stage II Hard Starting
Ultimate HDF Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,939
Likes: 3
From: TX
Order yourself a brand new tuner from Zanotti's for about $350ish and then take it to your tuner guy and get this problem worked out. Still high but Zanotti's should save you at least a hundred on the tuner and you know it is brand new that way. Just my .02. Can't wait till my stage II is done in a couple weeks. I went with the SE 103 Stage 2 with pro tuner dyno time and a brand new D and D Fatcat and I am looking forward to a little more boost when the wife rides....yeee haw.
Phil
Phil
I agree with those that have mentioned "startup advance". If it is too aggressive, it will make for hard starting & the periodic "kick back". Those kick backs, will cost you a starter clutch one day ~ that I can promise you.
If, as someone mentioned, these Stage II kits are nearing 10:1 static CR, then you ALSO need compression released. I don't care what the book says or what joeblo mechanic says, 10:1 is too much w/o compression releases. Additionally, the notion of using one compression release at "certain temps" is nutz. Get'm & use'm ~ BOTH of them.
Dalton had some really good feedback earlier in this thread too.
One other point.... given the fact that you have bought the most expensive motorcycle in it's class, way over paid for chrome crap, and paid big bux for performance mods.... What's the big deal about having it PROPERLY tuned with the PROPER device? You will probably discover that the bike runs WAY better, runs cooler, and gets better fuel economy once it's properly tuned. This notion of one map fits all is utter BS. Get it done "right" once and forget it ~ at least until the next performance mod.
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Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 554
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From: SoCal
Marc
Elite HDF Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,351
Likes: 461
From: Illinois
It will start cold fairly easy without releasing either one. I found that out when I first got this build done and forgot the compression releases a time or two.
It will always start when both are released no matter if it is hot or cold. But when it is very hot, with only the back one open, the motor will start before you even hear the motor turn over. If both are open, it will start, but the motor will turn over at least one full revolution before it fires. It has to do with the fuel temps being high enough for instant combustion instead of cranking a bit before firing.
I know how you feel about this advice. I was trying not to let my builder see the disbelief on my face when he was trying to teach me this. It didn't make sense to me, it seemed like the hotter the bike was, the more I would need all the compression release I could get.
I learned so much and gained so much from everything else he had taught and done for me that I figured it would be more "nutz" to ignore him than listen to him. Turns out he was right and I was wrong............. again.
He also told me that this theory isn't valid for every single build. He said to try it both ways and learn what my bike liked the best and stick with it. My advice to all would be to always use both unless you find that your bike still cranks hard when really not even when using both releases. If that's the case, the next time your bike is really hot, try just opening one and seeing if that makes a noticable difference. It sure does for me.
Dennis
have not had a chance to get it hot. Rode from Dallas to Wichita in 50 degree weather and never had a problem. Course I only started it about four times on that trip.
Ultimate HDF Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,939
Likes: 3
From: TX
I strongly disagree. When my bike is really hot, like when I have ridden full throttle for several miles on a 90 degree plus day, if I shut it off and for whatever reason want to start it back up again right away, it starts MUCH easier if I only open the rear compression release.
Dennis
Dennis
I can visualize that there a condition where this would work based solely on where a particular piston is and on which stroke.
For example: If the rear piston is just beginning it's compression stroke (up, with both valves closed), then this scenario would work fine. ***However, if that same piston were in the exact same position on the exhaust stroke (up, with exhaust valve opening), your strategy would yield no change whatsoever.
Like I said... if it works for you, great. I'll stick with my way ~ both releases, EVERY time.
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Elite HDF Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,351
Likes: 461
From: Illinois
Phil,
I am certainly not going to call you out on anything mechanical. I have learned alot from your posts. You are light years ahead of me on mechanical ability.
I learned a long time ago that anytime I think I know everything there is to know about any subject, someone comes along and shows me I still have alot to learn. I try not to pretend I know more than I actually do. I was just trying to share something that I picked up from someone I trust a great deal and has helped me on my path.
If someone proved to me that if I crossed my eyes and stuck out my tongue it would help my bike start easier, I'd do it. I do believe that to a certain extent, all motors are as unique as the people who ride them. Do whatever works for you even if your bud tells you that it is stupid.
One huge difference I am convinced of for sure is that before I had my compression releases, I would hold the starter until it fired even if it seemed to be straining to crank because the motor would usually turn backwards at least half a turn if I let off the starter before it fired. Now that I have my compression releases, if I hear a hard strain, I release the starter button and re-check the position of the compression releases. I haven't had the motor turn backwards since having these heads and compression releases installed. Most every time this has happened, one or both of the releases had closed before the motor started.
Dennis
I am certainly not going to call you out on anything mechanical. I have learned alot from your posts. You are light years ahead of me on mechanical ability.
I learned a long time ago that anytime I think I know everything there is to know about any subject, someone comes along and shows me I still have alot to learn. I try not to pretend I know more than I actually do. I was just trying to share something that I picked up from someone I trust a great deal and has helped me on my path.
If someone proved to me that if I crossed my eyes and stuck out my tongue it would help my bike start easier, I'd do it. I do believe that to a certain extent, all motors are as unique as the people who ride them. Do whatever works for you even if your bud tells you that it is stupid.
One huge difference I am convinced of for sure is that before I had my compression releases, I would hold the starter until it fired even if it seemed to be straining to crank because the motor would usually turn backwards at least half a turn if I let off the starter before it fired. Now that I have my compression releases, if I hear a hard strain, I release the starter button and re-check the position of the compression releases. I haven't had the motor turn backwards since having these heads and compression releases installed. Most every time this has happened, one or both of the releases had closed before the motor started.
Dennis
Cruiser
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 182
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From:
Marc,try this
Marc,I have a 2008 Ultra Classic w/ the S.E. 103" kit,had the same problems with the hard starting hot and then I remembered the the hard starting problem we were having with the power commanders on our 2006's (mine was a street glide).
Try this next time you do a hot start - turn the ignition on,flip the run switch on and then hit the start button,should fire right up,I usually wait until just when the fuel pump stops pumping,try this it should work.
Try this next time you do a hot start - turn the ignition on,flip the run switch on and then hit the start button,should fire right up,I usually wait until just when the fuel pump stops pumping,try this it should work.