103" Stage II Hard Starting
This is the normal sequence, unless I've been doing it all wrong
Thread Starter
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Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 554
Likes: 0
From: SoCal
Took it for Dyno Tune Today
What a waste of time
I spent 3.5 hours at Laidlaws in LA only to find out that they can't dyno tune it with the stock exhaust system in place. Seems the cat is in the way so they can't get the sniffer all the way up it's a$$. Turns out this is the first '09 with stock exhaust that they've try to do. The tech was very gracious and suggested that anything he did would be pure guess work and that it wasn't worth the money. I took his suggestion and left. He also suggested that there is a more experienced guy at another dealership and maybe I should check with him and see if he has any ideas relating to the hard starting when hot. Other than that he said I could always have compression releases installed if the problem persisted. So, now what? Nothing I guess. Geez...
Marc
I spent 3.5 hours at Laidlaws in LA only to find out that they can't dyno tune it with the stock exhaust system in place. Seems the cat is in the way so they can't get the sniffer all the way up it's a$$. Turns out this is the first '09 with stock exhaust that they've try to do. The tech was very gracious and suggested that anything he did would be pure guess work and that it wasn't worth the money. I took his suggestion and left. He also suggested that there is a more experienced guy at another dealership and maybe I should check with him and see if he has any ideas relating to the hard starting when hot. Other than that he said I could always have compression releases installed if the problem persisted. So, now what? Nothing I guess. Geez...Marc
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,847
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From: Missouri
What a waste of time I spent 3.5 hours at Laidlaws in LA only to find out that they can't dyno tune it with the stock exhaust system in place. Seems the cat is in the way so they can't get the sniffer all the way up it's a$$. Turns out this is the first '09 with stock exhaust that they've try to do. The tech was very gracious and suggested that anything he did would be pure guess work and that it wasn't worth the money. I took his suggestion and left. He also suggested that there is a more experienced guy at another dealership and maybe I should check with him and see if he has any ideas relating to the hard starting when hot. Other than that he said I could always have compression releases installed if the problem persisted. So, now what? Nothing I guess. Geez...
Marc
I spent 3.5 hours at Laidlaws in LA only to find out that they can't dyno tune it with the stock exhaust system in place. Seems the cat is in the way so they can't get the sniffer all the way up it's a$$. Turns out this is the first '09 with stock exhaust that they've try to do. The tech was very gracious and suggested that anything he did would be pure guess work and that it wasn't worth the money. I took his suggestion and left. He also suggested that there is a more experienced guy at another dealership and maybe I should check with him and see if he has any ideas relating to the hard starting when hot. Other than that he said I could always have compression releases installed if the problem persisted. So, now what? Nothing I guess. Geez...Marc
I'm putting mine on the dyno Friday. So I'll let you know what happens.
Cruiser
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 129
Likes: 0
From: NE Ohio
hard starts
1. 07 and later bikes are hard on the starters. I know of several that have been replaced.
2. These guys that say "I have x comprssion and starts just fine" are yanking your chain. Your SE255 cam has an early intake close at 25 degrees and develops more CCP than the Head Quarter builds and many others. Your CCP is around 205. The others are around 195. Big difference for the stock starter. Later closing intake cams will effectively reduce the cranking compression.
3. The stage II need compression releases for starter longevity based on what I have seen.
4. Some tuners can use the stock location O2 sensors to tune.
5. Some of the starting timing suggestions should help but I have not played with them myself.
Hope this helps.
B
2. These guys that say "I have x comprssion and starts just fine" are yanking your chain. Your SE255 cam has an early intake close at 25 degrees and develops more CCP than the Head Quarter builds and many others. Your CCP is around 205. The others are around 195. Big difference for the stock starter. Later closing intake cams will effectively reduce the cranking compression.
3. The stage II need compression releases for starter longevity based on what I have seen.
4. Some tuners can use the stock location O2 sensors to tune.
5. Some of the starting timing suggestions should help but I have not played with them myself.
Hope this helps.
B
Road Warrior
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,830
Likes: 8
From: Retired and living in the mountains of NE PA
Harley is pulling in all the CVO bikes with the 110 engines and installing compression releases and new gaskets. I imagine they have suffered lots of starters and lots of complaints about hard starting. My buddy has a 110 and has already replaced the battery and it always grunts and strains to start. It sounds like my old shovelhead. LOL. I am anxious to see what they do when his gets back. I think he took his in yesterday. We had some warm weather here in Indy. Rained like heck, but was warm.
Cruiser
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 165
Likes: 0
From: New Jersey
What a waste of time I spent 3.5 hours at Laidlaws in LA only to find out that they can't dyno tune it with the stock exhaust system in place. Seems the cat is in the way so they can't get the sniffer all the way up it's a$$. Turns out this is the first '09 with stock exhaust that they've try to do. The tech was very gracious and suggested that anything he did would be pure guess work and that it wasn't worth the money. I took his suggestion and left. He also suggested that there is a more experienced guy at another dealership and maybe I should check with him and see if he has any ideas relating to the hard starting when hot. Other than that he said I could always have compression releases installed if the problem persisted. So, now what? Nothing I guess. Geez...
Marc
I spent 3.5 hours at Laidlaws in LA only to find out that they can't dyno tune it with the stock exhaust system in place. Seems the cat is in the way so they can't get the sniffer all the way up it's a$$. Turns out this is the first '09 with stock exhaust that they've try to do. The tech was very gracious and suggested that anything he did would be pure guess work and that it wasn't worth the money. I took his suggestion and left. He also suggested that there is a more experienced guy at another dealership and maybe I should check with him and see if he has any ideas relating to the hard starting when hot. Other than that he said I could always have compression releases installed if the problem persisted. So, now what? Nothing I guess. Geez...Marc
Did you have them install the headers that came with the SE STG2 Kit? Those have the cat in them. I heard if you use the factory headers (no cat in them) then it will work.
Thread Starter
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Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 554
Likes: 0
From: SoCal
The big question is if retarding the timing and/or adjusting the mixture would actually cure the hard starting problem or if it in fact needs compression releases for the long term. The cost actually works out about the same. The labor to r&r heads runs about $500 plus the labor to drill the heads estimated at $100 plus the parts which should run about $200 totaling about $800. The SEST with discount runs about $400 plus another $300 or so to have it tuned totaling about $700 not including an aftermarket exhaust in order to get rid of the cat.
The argument is that if the tuning actually fixed the starting problem I would get the side benefit of it maybe running better while installing the compression releases will for sure fix the starting problem with no other advantages. Interestingly, yesterday I rode home on the freeway in miserable traffic for about an hour and half. When I got home the motor was pretty hot which is when it normally has its problem. I waited a couple of minutes and restarted it and it cranked right over. I tried it twice with the same result. What does that mean?? I'm contemplating just waiting a bit and see how it goes and if the problem continues then probably install compression releases. At least that's the plan so far today..
I hate to say this but now I wish I had paid the extra labor and had the dealer install the kit. If I had I'd just park the thing in front of their door and let them work it out. Having had an independent do it kind of precludes any help from the dealer or HD for that matter. Lesson learned.
Marc
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I suggest you find a tuner that will tune using wide band 02 sensors and any of the available tuning devices that allow for AFR and spark adjustments.
I know of such a tuner in Texas, and it was worth the ride and motel rooms to have him tune my 103 inch 09 with stock pipes..
Purrs like a kitten.
I know of such a tuner in Texas, and it was worth the ride and motel rooms to have him tune my 103 inch 09 with stock pipes..
Purrs like a kitten.
Road Captain
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 501
Likes: 0
From: SW Iowa
Mine has a couple of times fired back when cranking hot, Like when I kill it and quickly restart, and if you keep on the starter and push the high pressure charge thru, it will then start normally. So far my starter has had enough power to do that. Not sure if that pressure charge shortens the starter's life when the momentary extra overload hits the starter, but so far it will pull thru it. Like I said it has happened only a couple of times, all the rest of the time it starts normally, just don't let off the button until it has completely started as an early starter release could mistakenly be a kick back , not a complete start, and cause a bit of a drive mechanism backwards spinning once you start button.
If it ever does cost me a starter, I am dam sure replacing with the heavy duty starter and also pay the dealer to get the compression releases installed. I hate a bike that won't start. But I love my big bore 103". The only way in time I am going is bigger bore. No substitute for cubic inches in a slow speed tractor.
If it ever does cost me a starter, I am dam sure replacing with the heavy duty starter and also pay the dealer to get the compression releases installed. I hate a bike that won't start. But I love my big bore 103". The only way in time I am going is bigger bore. No substitute for cubic inches in a slow speed tractor.