Warranty question when adding PCV, SE-1, Pipes
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Cruiser
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 164
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From: Dayton OH
Warranty question when adding PCV, SE-1, Pipes
Does adding the PCV or changing the mapping of the ECM pose any warranty issues? If anything were to go wrong, will the dealer say "hey, you modified the system from factory settings, now you have make it right".
I've got 500 miles on mine and want to get the PCV, Breather and Jackpots, but don't want to screw up my warranty if something should go wrong.
I've got 500 miles on mine and want to get the PCV, Breather and Jackpots, but don't want to screw up my warranty if something should go wrong.
Road Master
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 868
Likes: 51
From: Illinois
I am going to have the SERT installed and Dyno tuned. I talked to the service dept. for my local dealer. They stated it was not a problem with them. He also stated that he could not speak for other dealers. He said that if I did have any problems while traveling to call customer service. I have thought about calling customer service before hand but I think I might be worrying for nothing.
It is important first to note that the dealer does not make the warranty the Motor Company does, and what most dealers do not want you to know is that you have legal rights as a consumer to change the components on your bike and have the freedom to use the parts you choose wether OEM or otherwise. The Federal government enacted the Magnuson-Moss Act to protect consumers from the OEM's which can be read here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson-Moss_Warranty_Act which states unless the aftermarket component causes a direct failure which can be completely proven, they do not have the power to void your warranty for using non OEM parts. Secondly, it is just dishonety and a lie if your dealer tells you that you need to use a Harley tuning product or they have to install them to keep your warranty as the Harley Screamin Eagle Race tuner (SERT) and Screamin Eagle Super Tuner (SEST) have the following statment right on the package seal "WARRANTY IMPLICATIONS APPLY, USE OF THIS PRODUCT OR SIMILAR MAY REDUCE OR VOID YOUR VEHICLE WARRANTY, THIS PRODUCT IS FOR OFF ROAD RACE VEHICLES ONLY, NEVER TO BE RIDDEN ON PUBLIC ROADS" you must also accept these terms everytime you open the software as well yet these are the products your dealer will tell you "will not void your warranty"
Also consider this, when is the last time you heard here or anywhere else that an individual was denied warranty coverage because they installed a stage 1 setup? It is all in the honesty of your dealer.
Also consider this, when is the last time you heard here or anywhere else that an individual was denied warranty coverage because they installed a stage 1 setup? It is all in the honesty of your dealer.
__________________
Jamie Long / Fuel Moto USA
The USA's Leader V-Twin EFI & Performance www.fuelmotousa.com
Contact 920-423-3309
Email jamie@fuelmotousa.com
Jamie Long / Fuel Moto USA
The USA's Leader V-Twin EFI & Performance www.fuelmotousa.com
Contact 920-423-3309
Email jamie@fuelmotousa.com
Road Captain
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 564
Likes: 7
From: Sunderland, MD
Jamie,
While all of that is true, the MoCo has a slew of lawyers willing to fight you on warranty issues if they deem you have voided your warranty. Additionally, the courts will place the burden on you to prove the item did not cause the damage. The MoCo can and has voided peoples' warrantees for adding aftermarket components. The law often is on their side, since many aftermarket ACs, computers, and pipes do not carry proper EPA or CARB certification for noise, emiisions, or both. Also, while the warranty is a MoCo issue, not a dealer issue, many dealers will play games with the MoCo to help the biker out. Often this is predicated on you buying parts from them and having them installed by them. This works well in theory, but if the MoCo decides to send an auditor to check out the claim, or if the failure happens while far away from home (like while in Sturgis at the rally, but living in Florida), the dealer who ends up working on your bike may not be as nice and you may not be covered.
Having said all that, most mild AC/pipe/chip combos probably won't cause a voided warranty...though tough economic times may change that, too.
Harry
While all of that is true, the MoCo has a slew of lawyers willing to fight you on warranty issues if they deem you have voided your warranty. Additionally, the courts will place the burden on you to prove the item did not cause the damage. The MoCo can and has voided peoples' warrantees for adding aftermarket components. The law often is on their side, since many aftermarket ACs, computers, and pipes do not carry proper EPA or CARB certification for noise, emiisions, or both. Also, while the warranty is a MoCo issue, not a dealer issue, many dealers will play games with the MoCo to help the biker out. Often this is predicated on you buying parts from them and having them installed by them. This works well in theory, but if the MoCo decides to send an auditor to check out the claim, or if the failure happens while far away from home (like while in Sturgis at the rally, but living in Florida), the dealer who ends up working on your bike may not be as nice and you may not be covered.
Having said all that, most mild AC/pipe/chip combos probably won't cause a voided warranty...though tough economic times may change that, too.
Harry
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,184
Likes: 5
From: Oregon
blah blah blah
don't be chicken to modify your own bike... sure they can void your warranty if its a direct cause of the problem, but geez all you are talking about is an intake, and exhaust with a fuel management program.... of which if you buy from Fuel Moto is gonna have a extensively tested fuel map....
if your dealership service is using fear to only install moco parts then f'n find another dealership
if you are that worried, then don't modify your bike....
i'd say more than 80% of HD riders..or people whom ride a motorcycle modify them..
hell I went to my dealership a few days ago and was out with the service manager showing him my Jackpot setup and PC V... he didn't instill fear into me about my warranty... he didn't go off that I should of bought the SERT II or whatever the f' it is called now.. hell they have Rineharts, Pythons and V&H pipes on the wall..
don't be chicken to modify your own bike... sure they can void your warranty if its a direct cause of the problem, but geez all you are talking about is an intake, and exhaust with a fuel management program.... of which if you buy from Fuel Moto is gonna have a extensively tested fuel map....
if your dealership service is using fear to only install moco parts then f'n find another dealership
if you are that worried, then don't modify your bike....
i'd say more than 80% of HD riders..or people whom ride a motorcycle modify them..
hell I went to my dealership a few days ago and was out with the service manager showing him my Jackpot setup and PC V... he didn't instill fear into me about my warranty... he didn't go off that I should of bought the SERT II or whatever the f' it is called now.. hell they have Rineharts, Pythons and V&H pipes on the wall..
Last edited by vertigo14; Jan 19, 2009 at 01:39 AM.
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,368
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From: Yokohama
I've had close to 40 bikes and this is the only one where engine knocking has been an issue. But do you think my dealer will fix that problem under warranty? No, he'll say that's just how they are and blame the EPA. So I'm doing the stage one and don't anticipate a problem from him.
Cruiser
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 230
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A mechanical failure due to the parts you wish to install is rare, and was stated above, warranty deniel would have to be based upon the failure caused by these parts.
But there is another looming area to consider, and that is emissons. We are very close to stricter enforcement of of air quality standards, such as the Clean AIr Act. In fact, Congress passed CAIR (Clean Air Interstate Regulations) on 12/23/08. These mainly apply to fossil-fueled power plants, but there are long range impacts for consumers.
So if you buy a fuel management system with a richer air/fuel ratio and you are caught riiding on public roads, then it is up to you to make it right. Some states, like CA, impose heavy fines for these changes.
Vendors are not immune either, even if they have you sign a disclaimer. The EPA recently came down hard on Casper Electronics for selling O2 simulators for cars. These send a false signal to the car's ECM when the catalytic converter is removed. Good luck trying to buy these from anyone now.
Check your state's laws and understand the risks before you decide. Since your bike is a 2009, it has O2 sensors. You would be better served with software that does not eliminate them versus an add-on box that does. That way you can program the correct settings if you have to pass an emissions check.
But there is another looming area to consider, and that is emissons. We are very close to stricter enforcement of of air quality standards, such as the Clean AIr Act. In fact, Congress passed CAIR (Clean Air Interstate Regulations) on 12/23/08. These mainly apply to fossil-fueled power plants, but there are long range impacts for consumers.
So if you buy a fuel management system with a richer air/fuel ratio and you are caught riiding on public roads, then it is up to you to make it right. Some states, like CA, impose heavy fines for these changes.
Vendors are not immune either, even if they have you sign a disclaimer. The EPA recently came down hard on Casper Electronics for selling O2 simulators for cars. These send a false signal to the car's ECM when the catalytic converter is removed. Good luck trying to buy these from anyone now.
Check your state's laws and understand the risks before you decide. Since your bike is a 2009, it has O2 sensors. You would be better served with software that does not eliminate them versus an add-on box that does. That way you can program the correct settings if you have to pass an emissions check.
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Outstanding HDF Member
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From: Yokohama
I can't imagine the police ever implementing surprise roadside checks to measure exhaust emissions (though they might check for noise levels). I can envision more states implementing mandatory emissions inspections, in which case it would be easy enough to unplug the PCV and reinstall the stock cans and air cleaner.
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I can see "both sides" in this issue but what concerns me most right now is that MOCO is on the ropes. The "stock" is down and a few high up managers have left or were asked to leave. In that economic environment, I can picture MOCO looking to save some $$$ by enforcing more rules and not paying out for warranty that they can claim to be "voided" by the owner of the bike. What dealers 'say" is complete B.S. because they are not the final word about your warranty, Harley Davidson the MOCO is.
I happened to pay for a full 7 year factory warranty from MOCO and I am one of those guys right now sitting on the fence in this issue, WANTING to install the PC-V and breather (with mild mufflers such as the new SuperTrapp SEs) but yet I don't want to risk 7 years of Factory warranty protection. I am not unhappy with the way my new 2009 runs but then it's winter now and wanted to revaluate when weather gets warm or hot again. I will not rely on the words of ANY Dealer because when you break down somewhere or some time, it likely will be when you are on a trip and need to visit some out of town (or state) dealer, not your own. That dealer will feel no loyalty towards you, just as you wouldn't to them either.
I wish there was a clear answer in this.... Before you criticize, remember there is a HUGE difference between having the basic 2 year MOCO warranty and a full 7 year MOCO warranty. That's allot to put on the line and risk...
I happened to pay for a full 7 year factory warranty from MOCO and I am one of those guys right now sitting on the fence in this issue, WANTING to install the PC-V and breather (with mild mufflers such as the new SuperTrapp SEs) but yet I don't want to risk 7 years of Factory warranty protection. I am not unhappy with the way my new 2009 runs but then it's winter now and wanted to revaluate when weather gets warm or hot again. I will not rely on the words of ANY Dealer because when you break down somewhere or some time, it likely will be when you are on a trip and need to visit some out of town (or state) dealer, not your own. That dealer will feel no loyalty towards you, just as you wouldn't to them either.
I wish there was a clear answer in this.... Before you criticize, remember there is a HUGE difference between having the basic 2 year MOCO warranty and a full 7 year MOCO warranty. That's allot to put on the line and risk...
Last edited by RODEO; Jan 19, 2009 at 07:25 AM.
Elite HDF Member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,817
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From: Novi MI
It's always been my understanding if the dealership doesn't install it and you have some type of engine failure, they will not fix it under the warranty. In most cases they will say the enhancements caused the engine damage. I waited about 4 months before having the stage one done on my '08 Heritage by an indy. The stage one done by an indy is usually illegal. The pipes on both my bikes say "for off road use only". They also tune the bike for the best performance which is no longer emission compliant. The dealership has to stick to the law. That's why if you have the dealership do it the pipes now sound no louder than the stock pipes they replaced. There was federal legislature introduced a couple of years ago making it illegal for anyone to alter the pipes or exhaust emissions. Because they believed it would put so many independent motorcycle shops out of business, it was dropped.
Last edited by barjbar; Jan 19, 2009 at 08:12 AM.