Great bunch of info, I would like to point out that many on this forum tune there TTS themselves and are no where close to expert tuners (myself included). TTS will allow for a professional tune, but in no way is it manditory to get one. If you use this info again I paid 430 with serial cables.

Great post.

 

What limitations might there be with the PCV assuming a good initial tune on a bike equipped like yours? It is untrue that a tune in another state on another like-equipped bike is flawed, as it all depends on the original tuner. A good tune on a distant bike will be a good tune on another located elsewhere. I can show evidence for this with Fuel Moto's canned map and the trims created by AT on my bike. These trims were slight or null in every cell, no more than 1%, which is very revealing as to the accuracy of the canned base map. As for temperature, humidity, and barometric pressure the stock MAP, ambient thermometer, and head-temp sensors compensate very well for this, and that coupled with an accurate base map which is why a good canned map created remotely is also good locally.

You can go with TTS, which is a fine tuner, and incur a $700-800 initial cost (correct me if I'm off here) including a dyno tune, but you'll need another dyno tune if you add mods later. The PCV-AT can auto-tune from a zeroed map if necessary, then continues to tune as you modify the bike. There is no dyno-tune necessary for the vast majority applications, and the cost is only $600. That's the price for a lifetime of tuning based on target AFR's and ignition-advance specs that you specify.

Also, am I not correct in saying that TTS is married to your bike? If it's like SERT/SEST you can't move it from bike to bike or sell it later. PCV can be moved from bike to bike if the connectors and internal configuration is the same. I.e. a PCV for a 2002 will fit a 2007 or anything in between. Where interchangeability gets dicey is with TBW.

 

iclick The TTS is a self tune unit. Jamie does sell it for a great price(where I got mine). If you are intrested you can go and get a dyno. But the projections at WOT are close enough. I vtuned my bike using the TTS. I went to see Jess Roeder and have him run the bike on his Dyno. The bike in the cruise range was dead on( the area I tuned) He then did a few WOT runs to check my AFR. I was rich and since I was there he went ahead and dialed in WOT. This is the ONLY place you can't vtune your bike with the TTS.

 

How do you establish accurate AFR's in open-loop mode without a dyno-tune? With TTS, SERT, and SEST you have closed-loop only at about 50% TP, so how do you tune that yourself without a good base map? Assuming a good base map is necessary where do you get it without doing a dyno tune? HD does have some canned maps available, as I understand, but these are mostly or all based on HD components (mufflers, cams, etc.). Also, the narrow-band O2 sensors limit not only the RPM/TP range but the AFR range as well. You are good for 14.2-15.0 (or thereabouts), with some tweakability using VM tables, but your self-tuning options are still limited.

Like the PCV you can tweak a good base map, like I've done for the past 2˝ years on PCIII's and PCV's--but you must have a good starting point. With PCV-AT you don't even need a good starting point, as a good tune is only a few hours of riding time away. Further, its wide-band sensors allow tuning from about 12.0-16.0:1 AFR, well within the usable range, and throughout the entire RPM/TP scope.

 

IMO that is a fair estimate if you don't tune it yourself. I'm not taking mine in to Dyno, so my cost is $430 all in. (Software, Shipping, Cables, Tune)

Correct, you can get a two bike licence for about half again the cost of the single licence.

 

By "self-tune" do you mean auto-tune? If so, and please correct me where I'm wrong here, how will TTS auto-tune above the range of the narrow-band O2 sensors? If so, how does it do that considering this is beyond the scope of these sensors? Unless I'm wrong, you can only auto-tune the cruise range (below about 50% TP) and only from about 14.2-15.1:1 AFR. How do you approach tuning above 50% TP without a very close base map?

You mention "projections" at WOT, so where do you get these for so many applications and hardware variations? Where do you start? I don't see how you can tune WOT without a very close base map, and you'll need a dyno tune on your bike or one just like it to get that. The PC is a similar scenario, as what values do you plug in as projections? How then do you know if these projections are close without the data obtained from a dyno tune or a good canned map?

If by self-tune you mean the operator tweaks the map, how is this fundamentally different than a basic PCV (non-AT)? I do know they are different approaches, one using the stock ECU exclusively and the other a "piggy-back" module, and that SEST/TTS has VM tables, utilitizes the stock O2 sensors, etc. that the basic PCV doesn't--but how is TTS fundamentally different at self-tuning than a PCV that only costs $300.

 

I am not too worried about the open loop, I don't spend too much time their. The bike's VE's are calibrated in closed loop over almost the entire map, then the AFR's are returned to their base calibration. I have tweeked mine in the 20 MAP below 2000 RPM to help eliminate a little of the decel pop that I had.

I have a good base map, it just requires some tweaking to adjust it to my bike. Sound like you have the same with the PCV. There are several maps available, I don't have a cam upgrade so haven't looked at those calibration files closely but the A/C & Exhaust are fairly generic, you just tune for them anyway.

Agreed, if you want everything you can get out of your bike get it tuned by a professional.

What else will the PCV-V or PCV-AT adjust? Just the AFR's?

 

V-Tune just calibrates your Volumetric efficiencies. You place your bike in closed loop mode over almost the entire map when doing this particular portion of the tune. Your then collect data on how much fuel is asked for vs how much fuel is sniffed by the sensor. You then adjust your VE's to calibrate the bike. That way when 'x' is asked for 'x' is what is received. once this is complete you don't touch it anymore, its calibrated.
The stratagy I have seen most often is to leave the bike in closed loop for as much of your map as possible and richen your fuel by using the Closed Loop Bias Tables. Closed Loop, your looking at about 14.2 on the rich side.


Hmm, the only projections I do for my tune is to extend my VE's to the areas of the MAP that were not captured in my v-tune run. The maps were developed with bikes placed on the Dyno, so I suggest they are pretty good. A dyno will undoubtedly get you even better results.

The only self tuning I am aware of is me tuning it myself..
What other areas of the bike can the PCV tune?

 

Yes the TTS is different in the way the PCV auto-tunes. You are very right saying this. The way in which you tune with the TTS is very simple. You select your base map(calibration file from a list that is close to your set-up) at this point you change all your AFR to 14.6 and load the map into bike. You ride the bike for 30 minutes or so using the vtune software. after you get back you save the vtune data and generate a new tune with the software. Load this new map into bike and repeat 2-3 times. At this point you set your AFR and project you WOT. Load map in bike and your done.


Link to some "light" reading if you would like more detailed information
http://www.mastertune.net/files/Tuni...ning_Guide.pdf

 

I'm concerned with WOT AFR's, which aren't part of closed-loop mode with TTS or SEST, thus they aren't influenced by the O2 sensors. Not all WOT settings will be the same for all applications, and it would seem the only way you'll get it right for your bike is from a good canned map or a dyno tune.

I think it may be similar, but there is one big variable that I think gives the PCV a big advantage. With the PCV you can buy from Fuel Moto and get an accurate map loaded when purchased. This isn't a reason to buy the PCV as much as where you buy it. The downside to SEST, and I presume TTS as well, is that canned maps are few and far between, in the case of SEST especially for non-HD hardware.

With Fuel Moto there is a very high probability that they will have a map for any configuration you might encounter. I did a cam upgrade two months ago and even though that wasn't an issue with Auto-Tune, Fuel Moto had a base map available for that setup. I started with that one, then auto-tuned based on Jamie's rich AFR's to establish a good base map by later accepting the trims, then changed the target AFR's for better mileage. Using the map-switch function I was then able to switch between the base map and auto-tune, optimum cooling or better gas mileage.

The basic PCV gives you two adjustable pairs of tables, one for each cylinder: Base map and ignition advance. The base map allows adjustment in 250 cells (RPM & TP) for fuel (percentage change over ECU) and ignition advance (degrees of advance over ECU). Auto-Tune gives you two more sets of tables, one of which is adjustable. The Target AFR tables allow you to specify the AFR you want in those same 250 cells (e.g., 13.8, 14.5, etc.). The second table set is Trims, which is the amount of change the O2 sensors trim off the base map based on input from the wide-band O2 sensors. Trims are not adjustable. If you want to create a new base map based on the trim tables you simply hit "Accept Trims" in the PC software and it will write a new map. Thus, if one cell in the base map is "10" and the trim value is "5", the new base map value will be "5" after you accept trims. By installing the O2 sensors and AT modules in other PCV-equipped bikes you could essentially dyno-tune many bikes with AT temporarily installed using the Accept Trims function. All those bikes would need then is the basic PCV installed with no AT needed.

This list is from the PC site:

* Reduced size from PCIIIusb (less than half of the size of PCIII)

* USB powered from computer (9 volt adapter is no longer needed for programming)

* 2 position map switching function built in (map switch not included)

* Gear input (allows for map adjustment based on gear and speed)

* Analog input (allows user to install any 0-5 volt sensor and build an adjustment table based on its input such as boost or temperature)

* With gear position input connected the PCV is capable of allowing each cylinder to be mapped individually and for each gear (for example: on a 4 cylinder bike with a six speed transmission there could be up to 24 separate fuel tables).

* Unit has a -100/+250% fuel change range (up from -100/+100%). This allows more adjustment range for 8 injector sportbikes

* 10 throttle position columns (up from 9 on PCIIIusb)

* Enhanced “accel pump” utility (increased adjustment and sensitivity ranges)