just came in here to say i am very happy with my PC5 and auto-tune.

 

Well, I need to download the TTS manual and figure out how you guys can tune outside closed-loop without and accurate base map, as I don't see how it's possible. I'm aware of the CLB, but still don't understand how you're tuning in open-loop mode with no feedback.

I hate to be dense, but I still don't see how you are getting the O2 sensors to work beyond the scope of a stock setup. Is that what you're saying? It would seem that they have their limitations and no amount of tweaking can change that. What am I missing?

Also, please explain "V-Tune," as I'm not familiar with it.

I see it working the same with the PCV (non-AT) and TTS, in that you are working in open-loop mode with no feedback from any sensors as to AFR's. How can MAP tell you where you are in AFR terms? If I have a zeroed map in a PCV I have no idea where to start in getting an optimum tune unless I want to trust only my buttometer.

The problem is that "base calculation" sounds like you are using the open-loop part of the map as a starting point for all applications. This may be okay for a stock bike, but once you install a different cam set you are into uncharted territory. The base map for my SE255's look nowhere even close to those of the stock setup. The reason for this is that the duration change on the cams freaks the MAP sensor into giving richer AFR's, and thus the base map must compensate. If you drop a stock base map into a bike with a cam upgrade you will not be even close to optimal. I might see getting close using one configuration if most components are similar, like free-flowing AC and slip-ons. But when you go further, like install Dyno-Tuned Jackpots or a 2-into-1 system, or do a cam upgrade, I think you won't be very close.

Are you using the term "MAP" like a PCV base map or as an acronym, like MAP sensor?

We're having a good discussion here where I'm getting good info from you guys using TTS. I'm not trying to denigrate TTS or SEST, not by a long shot, as I've admitted before that both are highly competent tuners, possibly the most feature-rich on the market in the hands of an advanced tuner (not always easy to find). OTOH I contend that their biggest limitation is (1) the stock O2 sensors (limited closed-loop operation) and (2) the need for a dyno tune to get AFR's right across the board. I still think this is the case and frankly don't understand much in the assertions that TTS can be self-tuned throughout the AFR/TP range. I will study up on this.

Fuel Moto sells them all, except SEST, and uses the PCV for all their Power Packages. He's not making a big profit on these so I don't think profit is his primary motive for selecting them as the tuner of choice. I guess it's a matter of preference and it's good that there is so much to choose from. That's good for the consumer.

 

Iclick link to manual

http://www.mastertune.net/files/Tuni...ning_Guide.pdf

By changing the voltage we are able to get the O2 sensors in different areas

V-tune is the name of the program to tune the bike. This process changes your ve charts and tunes the bike. The base map is only a starting point. It would be nice to have one close so your not tuning for more then 3-4 runs. but not really needed 2-1 exhaust vs jackpot vs. true-duels would all use same base map(calibration file)

List of calibration files

http://www.mastertune.net/files/Tuni...ileListing.pdf

 

As technically experienced as I am with computers, I'm clueless on the technical aspects of these tuners, but I'm very interested to learn. While some of the terminology in this thread is beyond me, it's very helpful overall. I do have a couple questions:

Is there a good "primer" somewhere on the web, to learn the basics of these tuners, including terminology like "AFR", "AT modules", "zeroed map", "WOT", "VM tables", "TP/RPM", etc?

Why is the Screamin' EagleŽ Pro Super Tuner Kit not shown anywhere on the H-D website? I've searched everywhere, including by part number (32109-08) and it's not there. With the 103 and 110 upgrade kits, I'm surprised there's no mention of the SEST anywhere on Harley's site.

Thanks for any help!

 

Screamin eagle parts here..

http://www.harley-davidson.com/wcm/C...p?locale=en_US

 

We calibrate in closed loop so that when we ask for 14.6 AFR that is what we register at our O2 sensors. We calibrate the bike with almost the entire map set at 14.6 to trigger closed loop mode. Now with our ECM's knowing how to adjust to obtain that specific AFR we can use that for any ARF we set it to in open loop, knowing that when we ask we shall receive. Now the closed loop will adjust for other things, altitude is a great example, changes in altitiude can mess with the calibration, so can different octane fuel.

O2 sensors just mesure voltage, I think its like your trim feature, so I can increase voltage measurements in certain ranges to have the O2 sensors remain in closed loop but deliver more fuel than the 14.6 setting that is used to trigger closed loop. These voltage settings are done in the CLB tables and its not recommended to go past 800mV or ~14.2. I think the part we are off is that I tune my VE's not my AFR (well I tweak my AFR a little). My Volumetric efficence calibrations will ensure are done in the begining and once done don't need to be done again unless something changes The calibration ensures that my ECM gives me the AFR I ask for whether I can measure it or not. Warm Fuzzy would be nice from a measurement, but not really needed. It will be very close for not being on a dyno.
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V-Tune is the software used to calibrate your Volumetic Efficency for both front and rear cylinders. Once I get the VE's right the AFR's fall into place as when the ECM asks for a specific AFR it knows that based on the VE's it needs to allow this much fuel to ensure that the AFR is what is measure on the other end. This isn't required at all AFR's using a single AFR allows you to calibrate for all AFR's (this allows use to tune VE's at WOT cause we use an AFR the sensors can read during this portion of the tune)

Im not sure this really translated well when I read it, I'm not certian what your saying. But here's my shot at a responce...

I tune my VE's for my map in Closed Loop, so that when I open up areas of my map for Open Loop the AFR I specify will be the AFR I recieve. MAP and RPM tell me where I am on the 'grid' and what AFR to deliver in both open and closed loop. Our VE's get calibrated by running a few short 30 minute rides and taking the data the ECM thinks it giving in terms of AFR compared to what is measured at the O2 sensors, then adjusts. So if it was 90% it now might be 87%. This is all measured, no buttometer. The desired AFR doens't need to be constantly adjusted as the ECM does this already in closed loop and with my VE;s calibrated in the open loop portion the ECM knows how much fuel to deliver to obtain my target AFR for that area of my map.


Right for pipes/AC combos we have a few different maps but they are really just the same and any differences are going to be customized during our tuning session (V-Tune). For my 2-1 I just took an extra run to calibrate.

For other upgrades there are other maps calibration files, I haven't looked to deep but I don't see specific CAM names other than SE. While I am not yet certian I would beleive that SE255 has some kind of Woods counterpart. Since I don't know specifically on the details for this type of set up this is where I wish that TTS had more calibration files OR stated that they where good for Woods 'X' CAM and SE255 ect.

Interchangably I am afraid.

In some cases I mean a map like a base map and in some cases i mean MAP as in Manifold Absolute Pressure. I think I capitalize the latter.

I agree with your point on 1 but don't think it is as big a limitation as you do, but still not number 2.
Great discussion and a welcome distraction from an other wise boring workday...

 

Generally the companies web site is a good place to start. Beware that they are trying to sell you something so watch for hype or marketing jargon. The manuals I found to be the most informative.

AFR - Air Fuel Ratio
AT Module - Auto Tune Module (PCV)
WOT - Wide Open Throttle
TP - Throttle Position
RPM - Revolutions Per Minute
VE - Volumetic Efficiency (sp)
SP - Spelling
CLB - Closed Loop Bias

 

Thanks, Zacharia_11 and vtwinbmx!

 

Do you think the at is worth the extra investment i am pleased with my pcv now easy to play with i might change map a slight bit more on higher rpm settings but from 0 throttle to mid it pulls great i fill some bog in higher tp but not as much now that i have remaped some but i was wondering what the benefits to the auto tune might be, you know what they say if it ain't broke don't fix it.

 

pc v from fuel moto is truley plugg and play! for those of us that would rather ride than tune.