big bore questions
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Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: May 2009
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From: GA.
big bore questions
I could have used the search feature, but to be honest, I don't feel like flipping through a million threads and trying to piece together information. And there's always plenty of you that are willing to help, so here goes.......
My bike is an '01 roadking. I just ordered a PCiii, stage 1 AC, and new pipes for it. Hope to have those on by this weekend. I'm seriously considering doing a big bore on it too. And figure I might as well do cams while I have it apart. I'm not looking for a ton of horsepower, and not looking to spend a fortune. I want good pulling power for 2 up riding, and plenty of fun power when solo. I rarely ride over 70 mph. I think great torque is what I'm after, moreso than high horsepower. Reliability is a must! So, here's a few random questions I have.
1. Should I go with a kit from someone, or piece meal it together?
2. If a kit, who's got the best deal with quality parts?
3. Should I consider heads, or will the stock heads be adequate?
4. Can someone recommend cams that you think will fit my needs?
5. Anything extra I should consider doing while I have it apart? Minimal downtime is key to me. I want all my ducks in a row before I begin. And I'll be doing all the work myself. I want to knock it out in a day or two.
6. Will newer model parts,(jugs and heads) work on my bike? I ask because I've seen take-offs from other builds. I could possibly get them and bore the juggs, and port/rework the heads for my bike beforehand.
I have more questions, but I'll get to those later. Thanks in advance for any help.
My bike is an '01 roadking. I just ordered a PCiii, stage 1 AC, and new pipes for it. Hope to have those on by this weekend. I'm seriously considering doing a big bore on it too. And figure I might as well do cams while I have it apart. I'm not looking for a ton of horsepower, and not looking to spend a fortune. I want good pulling power for 2 up riding, and plenty of fun power when solo. I rarely ride over 70 mph. I think great torque is what I'm after, moreso than high horsepower. Reliability is a must! So, here's a few random questions I have.
1. Should I go with a kit from someone, or piece meal it together?
2. If a kit, who's got the best deal with quality parts?
3. Should I consider heads, or will the stock heads be adequate?
4. Can someone recommend cams that you think will fit my needs?
5. Anything extra I should consider doing while I have it apart? Minimal downtime is key to me. I want all my ducks in a row before I begin. And I'll be doing all the work myself. I want to knock it out in a day or two.
6. Will newer model parts,(jugs and heads) work on my bike? I ask because I've seen take-offs from other builds. I could possibly get them and bore the juggs, and port/rework the heads for my bike beforehand.
I have more questions, but I'll get to those later. Thanks in advance for any help.
Road Warrior
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,302
Likes: 61
From: Near YVR
cams in the SE line 203 or 204....
I am running the 95 SE BB kit, that I paid 400.00 for
and it had all of the gaskets and bits to do the install.
The only gasket it didnt ahve was the primary cover when you
install the SE clutch spring.
plenty fun for me.....
Rob
I am running the 95 SE BB kit, that I paid 400.00 for
and it had all of the gaskets and bits to do the install.
The only gasket it didnt ahve was the primary cover when you
install the SE clutch spring.
plenty fun for me.....
Rob
Road Warrior
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,640
Likes: 817
I went the same route, more or less on my 99 @ 42K. I started out thinking "just cams to get rid of the chain tensioners", and decided that I'd rather do it all at once and be done with it. I already had the older non street legal SE pipes, and a Ness "Big Sucker" on the bike.
Had the Jugs bored out from 3.75" to 3.875"
Had the Heads ported and polished with Valves recut
Installed 10.25:1 Cast pistons
Installed Andrews Gear Cam Drive
Installed Andrews 54 Cams
Installed Jim's Hydrosolid Lifters
Installed Screamin Eagle adjustable pushrods
Installed Power Commander III
In addition to the 5 angle valve job & porting and polishing, I teardropped the valve guides, and relieved about .050" from the end of the guide to increase clearances. I also installed an Andrews high lift spring kit as it was marginal as to if the stock springs would work.
Are you doing the work yourself? If you are doing the cams, have you looked into what tools you need? I have the tools for the job on a '99 FLHTCI, but I don't know if they are the same. I also have a 3 ton arbor press that worked fine for pressing the cams and bearings into the cam support plate.
I would also recommend against using the set of adjustable push rods I used. I bought the set that came with the covers for ~ $140; but the rods are not very user friendly. The amount of flats on the cheaper push rod is 4 instead of 6 and that made adjusting them a bit tricky. In retrospect I should have bought the better Andrews ones, and the covers as required.
I don't know your riding style or mission profile for your bike. I can outline why I did mine the way I did, and will do so.
I have a bagger, and was not looking to do "bar to bar" wide open throttle runs. I wanted a beefier touring bike, and I wanted to correct the BS plastic cam tensioner shoe issue; as well as replace the crappy INA inner cam bearings with the better Torrington ones. I also wanted more low end torque to get the bagger moving, and am willing to give up some of the horsepower numbers to get it. I also didn't want my MPG to vanish.
I spoke to Andrews and lots of people I know with more knowledge about this than me and followed their advice.
1. Stock size valves are fine. Great big oversized valves are great for racing engines that are going to live at high RPM's.
2. I went with a cam that Andrews said would work well at lower rpm. I don't see riding the bagger at more than 3700rpm (except between shifts of course), so a cam that makes a ton of horsepower between 3800 to 7500 rpm was not what I needed.
3. I kept the ports relatively small. I was told that smaller ports that flow high numbers work best for low end torque. Big ports are better for higher RPM's, but I was not building a race motor.
4. I brought up the compression by using the cast 10.25:1 pistons. Cast is fine in my application, forged would be for a much higher revving engine where weight is a bigger concern (although if I was doing a stroker i might go forged). I didn't install compression releases as the static compression ratio was around 9.98:1 and they shouldn't be required. It wouldn't hurt to have them, but it was an unnecessary expense IMHO.
5. I have fuel injection, and had to install a Power Commander III. I ordered it from FuelMoto, and they preloaded it with a map based on what I was doing to the bike. I had the bike dyno'd and came up with 86hp & 100 Tq. I can tell you that going into 3rd gear and twisting it up to ~ 5800rpm happens really quickly with the bike pulling like a freight train. I can hit 95mph in 3rd before dropping it back to reasonable speeds (gotta love the toll booth, Illinois' legal drag strip
)
I did not do the Baisley spring, but I have since purchased it and will put it in one of these days. I'm not having issues, but I just get a bit freaked out looking at the oil pressure gauge sitting just over 0 when I'm sitting at a light on a hot bike.
Had the Jugs bored out from 3.75" to 3.875"
Had the Heads ported and polished with Valves recut
Installed 10.25:1 Cast pistons
Installed Andrews Gear Cam Drive
Installed Andrews 54 Cams
Installed Jim's Hydrosolid Lifters
Installed Screamin Eagle adjustable pushrods
Installed Power Commander III
In addition to the 5 angle valve job & porting and polishing, I teardropped the valve guides, and relieved about .050" from the end of the guide to increase clearances. I also installed an Andrews high lift spring kit as it was marginal as to if the stock springs would work.
Are you doing the work yourself? If you are doing the cams, have you looked into what tools you need? I have the tools for the job on a '99 FLHTCI, but I don't know if they are the same. I also have a 3 ton arbor press that worked fine for pressing the cams and bearings into the cam support plate.
I would also recommend against using the set of adjustable push rods I used. I bought the set that came with the covers for ~ $140; but the rods are not very user friendly. The amount of flats on the cheaper push rod is 4 instead of 6 and that made adjusting them a bit tricky. In retrospect I should have bought the better Andrews ones, and the covers as required.
I don't know your riding style or mission profile for your bike. I can outline why I did mine the way I did, and will do so.
I have a bagger, and was not looking to do "bar to bar" wide open throttle runs. I wanted a beefier touring bike, and I wanted to correct the BS plastic cam tensioner shoe issue; as well as replace the crappy INA inner cam bearings with the better Torrington ones. I also wanted more low end torque to get the bagger moving, and am willing to give up some of the horsepower numbers to get it. I also didn't want my MPG to vanish.
I spoke to Andrews and lots of people I know with more knowledge about this than me and followed their advice.
1. Stock size valves are fine. Great big oversized valves are great for racing engines that are going to live at high RPM's.
2. I went with a cam that Andrews said would work well at lower rpm. I don't see riding the bagger at more than 3700rpm (except between shifts of course), so a cam that makes a ton of horsepower between 3800 to 7500 rpm was not what I needed.
3. I kept the ports relatively small. I was told that smaller ports that flow high numbers work best for low end torque. Big ports are better for higher RPM's, but I was not building a race motor.
4. I brought up the compression by using the cast 10.25:1 pistons. Cast is fine in my application, forged would be for a much higher revving engine where weight is a bigger concern (although if I was doing a stroker i might go forged). I didn't install compression releases as the static compression ratio was around 9.98:1 and they shouldn't be required. It wouldn't hurt to have them, but it was an unnecessary expense IMHO.
5. I have fuel injection, and had to install a Power Commander III. I ordered it from FuelMoto, and they preloaded it with a map based on what I was doing to the bike. I had the bike dyno'd and came up with 86hp & 100 Tq. I can tell you that going into 3rd gear and twisting it up to ~ 5800rpm happens really quickly with the bike pulling like a freight train. I can hit 95mph in 3rd before dropping it back to reasonable speeds (gotta love the toll booth, Illinois' legal drag strip
)I did not do the Baisley spring, but I have since purchased it and will put it in one of these days. I'm not having issues, but I just get a bit freaked out looking at the oil pressure gauge sitting just over 0 when I'm sitting at a light on a hot bike.
Thread Starter
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Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 2,160
Likes: 62
From: GA.
Nice write-up, James. Thank you. I believe my wants are similar to what yours were. And you answered a few of my other un-asked questions in your post. I was gonna ask about upgrading cam bearings. I've read elsewhere about the adjustable push rod issues, so thanks for that reminder. I do plan to do everything myself, if possible. I haven't decided wether or not I'll go with gear drive cams. As I understand it, I'll need to check crank run-out first. That'll require tearing into the bike to check, which will lead to longer down time. The newer tensioner upgrade seems okay, from what I've heard? I think I have all the required tools covered. I'll have to get a different ring squeezer for sure, but I believe a friend has one I can borrow. What other special tools might I need that can't be improvised with some clever thinking?
edit> what kind of MPG do you have with your build? I'd like to keep mine close to where it's at now, which is 40 average.
edit> what kind of MPG do you have with your build? I'd like to keep mine close to where it's at now, which is 40 average.
Last edited by cuda67bnl; Aug 25, 2009 at 11:53 AM.
Road Warrior
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,640
Likes: 817
As far as tools, everyone has an opinion. What I laid in before doing the job:
Manufacturer Manufacturers Part # Description
Georges Garage 180010 Wrist Pin Remover & Installer Tool
Georges Garage 320530 Oil Pump Alignment Screws
Georges Garage 320550 Inner Cam Bearing Installer
Georges Garage 320560 Camshaft Bearing Remover
Georges Garage 340050 Push-Rod Clip Installation Tool
Jim's Tools 1277 Cam Shaft Remover and Installer
Jim's Tools 1279 Inner Cam Bearing Puller
Jim's Tools 1283 Cam Chain Tensioner Unloader
Jim's Tools 1285 Cam & Crank Sprocket Lock Tool
I didn't know what I needed, so I erred on the side of caution. I also have a 5 ton Arbor press already, so I didn't need one of those! I didn't need the Wrist Pin Remover & Installer Tool, or the Push-Rod Clip Installation Tool; and lots of folks here will tell you how to work around the other stuff. I that way when it comes to tools, I wanted to have all the stuff just in case.
Get a long 1/4" allen ball end t-handle wrench, and cut off the t handle, then hold it in a socket. The intake manifold is a "bit tight" to remove otherwise.
1/2" (IIRC) 12 point socket for the head bolts.
5/16" (IIRC) torque dog bone adaptors (with the motor in the frame, if you want to torque the rocker box stuff you will need these, I used German torque on the ones I couldn't get at).
I have 2 good torque wrenches, In-lbs and Ft-lbs. Used both.
Tap and die set, I cleaned every thread and screw I disassembled, and nice fresh blue loctite.
Didn't need a ring compressor, they pushed in by hand enough during reassembly (jugs were chamfered by shop that did the boring).
Mileage varies, if I ride back and forth to work (some two lane roads mixed with some expressway) I get ~ 40.
75-80 on a slab loaded with luggage for 2, only around 34mpg.
I really wish for the 6th gear, and may eventually add that.
Manufacturer Manufacturers Part # Description
Georges Garage 180010 Wrist Pin Remover & Installer Tool
Georges Garage 320530 Oil Pump Alignment Screws
Georges Garage 320550 Inner Cam Bearing Installer
Georges Garage 320560 Camshaft Bearing Remover
Georges Garage 340050 Push-Rod Clip Installation Tool
Jim's Tools 1277 Cam Shaft Remover and Installer
Jim's Tools 1279 Inner Cam Bearing Puller
Jim's Tools 1283 Cam Chain Tensioner Unloader
Jim's Tools 1285 Cam & Crank Sprocket Lock Tool
I didn't know what I needed, so I erred on the side of caution. I also have a 5 ton Arbor press already, so I didn't need one of those! I didn't need the Wrist Pin Remover & Installer Tool, or the Push-Rod Clip Installation Tool; and lots of folks here will tell you how to work around the other stuff. I that way when it comes to tools, I wanted to have all the stuff just in case.
Get a long 1/4" allen ball end t-handle wrench, and cut off the t handle, then hold it in a socket. The intake manifold is a "bit tight" to remove otherwise.
1/2" (IIRC) 12 point socket for the head bolts.
5/16" (IIRC) torque dog bone adaptors (with the motor in the frame, if you want to torque the rocker box stuff you will need these, I used German torque on the ones I couldn't get at).
I have 2 good torque wrenches, In-lbs and Ft-lbs. Used both.
Tap and die set, I cleaned every thread and screw I disassembled, and nice fresh blue loctite.
Didn't need a ring compressor, they pushed in by hand enough during reassembly (jugs were chamfered by shop that did the boring).
Mileage varies, if I ride back and forth to work (some two lane roads mixed with some expressway) I get ~ 40.
75-80 on a slab loaded with luggage for 2, only around 34mpg.
I really wish for the 6th gear, and may eventually add that.
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,227
Likes: 5
I went with Dave Mackie Engineering: http://www.davemackie.com/
He offers a kit that delivers 100 squared. 100hp and 100tq.
Idid much the same that jamesw posted. Except, I went with 10:5 dome/dished forged pistons, .569 cams all form Mackie. My heads were sent to a place in Ms that does heads for some NASCAR guys.
My dyno was 102hp and 108tq. This was 27K miles ago with excellent reliabilty and plenty of power.
As jamesw said, if your going big bore do the heads. Getting the air in and out makes a big difference.
I like to bore "seasoned" jugs, they've usually done all the moving and warping they are gonna do. If you don't want your bike down long buy some used heads and jugs so you can have all that ready. My bike was down for two days.
Enjoy.
He offers a kit that delivers 100 squared. 100hp and 100tq.
Idid much the same that jamesw posted. Except, I went with 10:5 dome/dished forged pistons, .569 cams all form Mackie. My heads were sent to a place in Ms that does heads for some NASCAR guys.
My dyno was 102hp and 108tq. This was 27K miles ago with excellent reliabilty and plenty of power.
As jamesw said, if your going big bore do the heads. Getting the air in and out makes a big difference.
I like to bore "seasoned" jugs, they've usually done all the moving and warping they are gonna do. If you don't want your bike down long buy some used heads and jugs so you can have all that ready. My bike was down for two days.
Enjoy.
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From: GA.
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