Progressive fork cartridges..
Road Warrior
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,639
Likes: 2
From: Australia
I'm happy to argue when there's what appears to be a BS argument going on.
Unless I've missed something, no one has actually used the Progressive fork cartridges. Howard has explicitly said that he hasn't tested them. Howard has also said that he's not finished with the Ohlins front fork setup, so no one has any experience with them either.
It's a crock then for people to jump in and say that the Ohlins perform better than the Progressive, and it's really a crock for Howard to trash talk a product he has no experience with. For all anyone knows, the Progressive setup may be the deal of a lifetime and perform far better than anyone suspects.
Ohlins' reputation precedes itself, and at no point has anyone questioned their quality. The only question was what makes the Ohlins better than Progressive, Racetech, Ricor, or any other suspension solution. It's not a trick question. At this point, at least as far as the front suspension is concerned, it's all wild-assed speculation based on what's inside the forks, as no one has done any sort of head-to-head testing.
If something works, it works. I don't care what it costs, what brand it is, or who I buy it from. And I want more than the seller's say-so that a product is worth the money.
Edited to add- I want to make it clear that I'm not trashing anyone's product. It sounds like everyone involved in this thread has the same goal; to have a bike that rides and handles better than stock. No one has tried the Progressive system, so no one can say with any authority how well it works (or doesn't work). No one has tried the Ohlins system either, so we're stuck bench racing both products until someone ponies up the money to try them.
Unless I've missed something, no one has actually used the Progressive fork cartridges. Howard has explicitly said that he hasn't tested them. Howard has also said that he's not finished with the Ohlins front fork setup, so no one has any experience with them either.
It's a crock then for people to jump in and say that the Ohlins perform better than the Progressive, and it's really a crock for Howard to trash talk a product he has no experience with. For all anyone knows, the Progressive setup may be the deal of a lifetime and perform far better than anyone suspects.
Ohlins' reputation precedes itself, and at no point has anyone questioned their quality. The only question was what makes the Ohlins better than Progressive, Racetech, Ricor, or any other suspension solution. It's not a trick question. At this point, at least as far as the front suspension is concerned, it's all wild-assed speculation based on what's inside the forks, as no one has done any sort of head-to-head testing.
If something works, it works. I don't care what it costs, what brand it is, or who I buy it from. And I want more than the seller's say-so that a product is worth the money.
Edited to add- I want to make it clear that I'm not trashing anyone's product. It sounds like everyone involved in this thread has the same goal; to have a bike that rides and handles better than stock. No one has tried the Progressive system, so no one can say with any authority how well it works (or doesn't work). No one has tried the Ohlins system either, so we're stuck bench racing both products until someone ponies up the money to try them.
I dont need to ride a 124" Ultima or Revtech to know that the S&S is superior.
The Ultimas and revtechs are just too cheap to be a serious belted-daily occasional-strip-ridden motor, and I have read enough about Ultimas spilling their contents on the freeway to know that they arent for me.
I have never owned a bike with one and never will.
Same with Progressive. $400 for a set of cartridges just seems to cheap and couldnt be expected to be suitable for the sort of riding I do. I would expect that the life or performance of such a product will be inadequate. Do I have any facts to back this up? None at all.
Would you buy a parachute that cost $150? Things that seem cheap and cheerful often end up being cheap and nasty, thats my experience. So I choose known extra-high performance brands from reputable dealers and pay the extra. You already know my thoughts on the law of diminishing returns, and I am happy to pay 50% more for 20% more performance and 20% more reliability.
This approach to motorcycling was vindicated this week when a mates SE 113 engine crapped itself in traffic. I paid about 50% more for my engine in order to get rid of the chain driven cam crap, and the POS light duty stock crank. Am I happy? Hell yes. Is my bike 20% quicker and 20% more reliable? Comfortably.
However I do agree with you that the OP was asking for informed experience with the progressive cartridges, and all we have offered so far is uninformed, opinionated comment. Howard is more informed on suspension in general than anyone I can think of, but he has never even seen the cartridges in question.
Just as I dont need to see an Ultima to know it aint for me, and if asked I would advise my mates to look elsewhere for serious performance, Howard has given you an opinion on Progressive. Take it or leave it. Better yet, go and buy a fuggin set and let us know what they are like.
So to get back on track - Is anyone running them? How many miles on them now? What are they like??
Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 577
Likes: 4
Boomer, what adjustements do the Ohlins you ardered have?
Generally, low end shocks only have rebound, which is necessary if you add a passenger or lots of weight for a trip. Higher end shocks have compression and/rebound, and even length, perhaps not as critical. particularly if they are set up well initially.
My Ohlin shocks (on my Dyna) have full adjutability, which has proved really nice, even though they were setup by the seller. However they were pricey.
I like Ohlins, although at the price you are paying, I suspect they only have rebound adjustment ??
Thx for the input
greg
Generally, low end shocks only have rebound, which is necessary if you add a passenger or lots of weight for a trip. Higher end shocks have compression and/rebound, and even length, perhaps not as critical. particularly if they are set up well initially.
My Ohlin shocks (on my Dyna) have full adjutability, which has proved really nice, even though they were setup by the seller. However they were pricey.
I like Ohlins, although at the price you are paying, I suspect they only have rebound adjustment ??
Thx for the input
greg
After talking with Howard for a little while by email and over the phone and finding out I could get a set of his most popular custom made shocks (delivered) that are good for life at the relatively low sum of $516 (for HDF members) I went ahead and ordered a set.
I'm confident his front fork solution will be something I will crave as well but for now the rear shocks will have to suffice for me but I will be keeping an eye on what is developed.
I poured over a hundred or more posts on this forum and read almost all the way through Howard's website and others to get the education I needed to make this decision.
I'm not knocking the Progressive 440 which would be the closest thing to a mass produced competitor which Motorcycle Metal is not. Still at almost the same cost why would anyone who knew all the facts buy the 440's over the Ohlin's custom made shocks?
I also look forward to the day when he is making Softail shocks.
I'm confident his front fork solution will be something I will crave as well but for now the rear shocks will have to suffice for me but I will be keeping an eye on what is developed.
I poured over a hundred or more posts on this forum and read almost all the way through Howard's website and others to get the education I needed to make this decision.
I'm not knocking the Progressive 440 which would be the closest thing to a mass produced competitor which Motorcycle Metal is not. Still at almost the same cost why would anyone who knew all the facts buy the 440's over the Ohlin's custom made shocks?
I also look forward to the day when he is making Softail shocks.
Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 577
Likes: 4
I agree with your comments re: trashing other products, and particularly that noone has tried the progressve front cartridges
First of all, I think I was the one who mentioned $2000+. and I was referring to front AND rear. In reality,high end adjustable Ohlins for both ends would cost more than this, although I certainly don't know the $$ amount.
Although I also have not tried the Progressive front cartridges, I have tried other "top end" Progressive stuff, as well as Ohlins, so I have made some assumptions based on that.
I have Ohlins on two of my bikes, they make some top shelf stuff AND they make some low end, non adjustable stuff.....both my 07 Dyna and BMW have adjustable Ohlins, which are expensive, and work great. Really nice!
I have tried Progressive 440s on both my Road King and now my Road Glide. The progressive 440s, on a dresser, just don't seem any better than stock...JMHO. I understand Howard sells Ohlins for the rear of the dressers...are these fully adjustable, or just rebound. Even if only rebound, for $500 I would try them before Progressives, based on my experience. A good buddy has the Works Trackers, and also has Ohlins on other bikes, and he really likes the Work shocks. Not pushing Works, just my views at this point.
greg
First of all, I think I was the one who mentioned $2000+. and I was referring to front AND rear. In reality,high end adjustable Ohlins for both ends would cost more than this, although I certainly don't know the $$ amount.
Although I also have not tried the Progressive front cartridges, I have tried other "top end" Progressive stuff, as well as Ohlins, so I have made some assumptions based on that.
I have Ohlins on two of my bikes, they make some top shelf stuff AND they make some low end, non adjustable stuff.....both my 07 Dyna and BMW have adjustable Ohlins, which are expensive, and work great. Really nice!
I have tried Progressive 440s on both my Road King and now my Road Glide. The progressive 440s, on a dresser, just don't seem any better than stock...JMHO. I understand Howard sells Ohlins for the rear of the dressers...are these fully adjustable, or just rebound. Even if only rebound, for $500 I would try them before Progressives, based on my experience. A good buddy has the Works Trackers, and also has Ohlins on other bikes, and he really likes the Work shocks. Not pushing Works, just my views at this point.
greg
I'm happy to argue when there's what appears to be a BS argument going on.
Unless I've missed something, no one has actually used the Progressive fork cartridges. Howard has explicitly said that he hasn't tested them. Howard has also said that he's not finished with the Ohlins front fork setup, so no one has any experience with them either.
.
Unless I've missed something, no one has actually used the Progressive fork cartridges. Howard has explicitly said that he hasn't tested them. Howard has also said that he's not finished with the Ohlins front fork setup, so no one has any experience with them either.
.
Elite HDF Member
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,928
Likes: 1
From: Desert S. West
Boomer, what adjustements do the Ohlins you ardered have?
Generally, low end shocks only have rebound, which is necessary if you add a passenger or lots of weight for a trip. Higher end shocks have compression and/rebound, and even length, perhaps not as critical. particularly if they are set up well initially.
My Ohlin shocks (on my Dyna) have full adjutability, which has proved really nice, even though they were setup by the seller. However they were pricey.
I like Ohlins, although at the price you are paying, I suspect they only have rebound adjustment ??
Thx for the input
greg
Generally, low end shocks only have rebound, which is necessary if you add a passenger or lots of weight for a trip. Higher end shocks have compression and/rebound, and even length, perhaps not as critical. particularly if they are set up well initially.
My Ohlin shocks (on my Dyna) have full adjutability, which has proved really nice, even though they were setup by the seller. However they were pricey.
I like Ohlins, although at the price you are paying, I suspect they only have rebound adjustment ??
Thx for the input
greg
Maybe Howard will see this question and give us both a better answer than I have. Here is his touring page with other shocks and some in development.
You can see of the one's I'm getting below ...
Thread Starter
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Road Captain
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 560
Likes: 0
From: So. California
Well, I haven't got them yet, but my impression is they are adjustable for sag and/or extra weight like a passenger or luggage. I'm not sure they have rebound adjustment to tell you the truth. They come with two adjustment wrenches. It looks like two spanner wrenches to lock and unlock the nuts.
Maybe Howard will see this question and give us both a better answer than I have. Here is his touring page with other shocks and some in development.
You can see of the one's I'm getting below ...
Maybe Howard will see this question and give us both a better answer than I have. Here is his touring page with other shocks and some in development.
You can see of the one's I'm getting below ...
I really don't think much of Howard giving his HONEST and KNOWLEGABLE opinion on "Progressive products". He is being honest with you, take it or leave it... He' not going to blow any smoke up your a$$, that's forsure. I have several friends who bought either the Progressive 430 or 440 shocks. Some have taken them off in disgust and bought either Ohlins, Penske or Works performance shocks. Others are satisfied with the Progressive shocks. Those who kept them on thier bikes were ironically either married with a choke chain around thier neck. Broke, and can't afford to make the change, or they don't ride the bike hard enough to notice how poorly the bike STILL handles.
I am not in any way affiliatted with Ohlins, nor Howard. I have never met Howard, only talked on the phone. I can relate to him well and his opinion is valid in my book, He's a straight shooter, and isn't afraid to tell it like it is...
Last edited by langhammx; Dec 9, 2009 at 10:44 PM.
Road Warrior
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,639
Likes: 2
From: Australia
Hey I was in the Ducati dealer today and they had a Desmodeci RR V4 powerhouse thing which was $108,000 Aussie.
The salesman told me that the front Ohlins forks were a bit special. External reservior front legs which I have never seen before. Adjustable 65 million ways from Sunday. I asked their replacement price, just out of interest. We had a look on the computer, they list for $25000 Aussie.
Call that $12500 US.
So I think that gives us an upper boundary on what front ohlins would cost.
The salesman told me that the front Ohlins forks were a bit special. External reservior front legs which I have never seen before. Adjustable 65 million ways from Sunday. I asked their replacement price, just out of interest. We had a look on the computer, they list for $25000 Aussie.
Call that $12500 US.
So I think that gives us an upper boundary on what front ohlins would cost.
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Ultimate HDF Member
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 7,439
Likes: 884
From: 'Noke, VA
Those Ohlins aren't rider-adjustable at all? Not even for preload?
That's great that they're set up for the rider, but if the rider gains or loses weight, throws a passenger onboard, or loads down with luggage, the shocks aren't set up correctly.
Am I understanding that correctly?
That's great that they're set up for the rider, but if the rider gains or loses weight, throws a passenger onboard, or loads down with luggage, the shocks aren't set up correctly.
Am I understanding that correctly?
Club Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 45,429
Likes: 2,897
From: Bedford UK
Those Ohlins aren't rider-adjustable at all? Not even for preload?
That's great that they're set up for the rider, but if the rider gains or loses weight, throws a passenger onboard, or loads down with luggage, the shocks aren't set up correctly.
Am I understanding that correctly?
That's great that they're set up for the rider, but if the rider gains or loses weight, throws a passenger onboard, or loads down with luggage, the shocks aren't set up correctly.
Am I understanding that correctly?
My #3 Ohlins have combined compression and rebound damper adjustment in addition to spring pre-load. #6 will blow your nose and take your temperature....
