It would be my opinion that your high oil temps are do to the tune and nothing more. Your stage 1 map has a lot more timing advance than you need. The 255's build a ton of cylinder pressure which requires timing to be retarded in order to avoid detonation.

Get it tuned once your new pipe is on and I bet you see a big drop in oil temps.

Zach

 

I think you may be confusing the limits of AT trim value per session with the total swing capability of the systems. IIRC the T-Max also allows 20% per session with the ability to save trims to the basemap. Not sure what their total deviation is though. We can also choose to lower the value that or AT systems can adjust. This is useful once your basemap has been modified for your bike. Instead of allowing 20% swings using the AT I could restrict it to say 5%. Then if an o2 sensor or AT module fails I'm not far off the basemap and can continue my journey without any ill effects.

I guess this is just a matter of preference. I haven't seen and solid data to suggest one is better than the other. For me, I chose PCV because it is much easier to find a tuner experienced with Dynojet products than it is to find someone trained on TTS or T-Max.

I have zero experience with data logging and have never adjusted timing. This is an area I previously chose to avoid. I know ICLICK has done some timing work with his scoot without going on the dyno... I do think this would be a useful tool, even if not completely necessary to get a tune that is void of pinging and detonation.

I agree with the loss of power. With the 255 cam, 103, CAT headpipe, and Dyno-tuned Jackpots I had 97 TQ and 80 HP. TQ is almost where it should be with this setup. HP is lacking. To me, the headpipe and heat soaking would explain this. Jamie has done extensive testing with the CAT and non-CAT stock headpipes and in development of his new 2-1-2 pipe. I would think he has more info on this than any of us. Maybe he will chime in...

 

Timing is definitely and area where I could use more knowledge. My ECM has the 103 Stage II download (I assume) because all the motor was built by the HD dealer prior to me finding it on the showroom floor.

Because the ECM already has the timing adjustment accounted for, wouldn't it stand to reason that there would be no timing adjustments necessary?

I have "0's" in every cell of my timing map right now. Should I try retarding the timing a bit across the board (2-4%)and see what happens?

 

I wouldn't assume anything based on your story here. Even if your ECM has the Stage 2 flash it is not optimized. Every bike is different for a variety of reasons.

I'm not at all familiar with the Power Commander, but having all your timing tables at zero indicates to me a dyno tune is needed. The Auto Tune does nothing for your timing. Get it to a competent tuner once your pipe is installed. You will be amazed at the difference.

If you haven't guessed, I'm not a big fan of the Auto Tune systems. But that's just me.

Zach

 

We also have knock-sensing and when you hear detonation it should fade quickly, which is the ECU retarding the ignition timing.

If that's the case you've been running a map that's way off. The 255's cams make a big difference in the map, but IIRC you're running Auto-Tune and AFR's should be where you want it. I would expect that you're showing some high negative numbers in the cruise range of the trim tables.

Leanness and advance contribute to detonation, so this may work.

Retarding the timing will reduce pinging, not increase it--but it also reduces performance in the absence of detonation. IOW, if you're detonating you are not maximizing performance, and retarding the timing to nix detonation will help. Detonation is potentially harmful to your engine, so it's important to get it under control. That's why the ECU has the ion-sensing knock-detection and programming to keep detonation to a minimum.

I have no experience with these, but it makes sense that it may well be part of your problem.

To me this is such a good feature of the PCV that everyone should be using it, but few do. It comes in handy at times, like two weeks ago when I got caught in New Orleans rush-hour in 75° weather. I was idling and in 1st gear for 30 min. and I flipped the switch to open-loop early on, which is my rich base map. The bike kept its cool for quite a while but in the end oil temps had climbed to 240°, 10° higher than I've ever seen before, so it isn't a panacea. This was the worst traffic I've experienced on a MC in 43 years.

I wish it would log oil temps, but it won't since the ECU doesn't monitor this. It does monitor front-head temps, though.

I'm going to borrow a new LCD-200 from a friend for a while, long enough to do some data-logging. I'll probably do a write-up on it, but I'll be damned if I know where I'm going to mount the thing! There's just no place for it to go on this bike without blocking something. I may just velcro it to the bottom of the dash near the seat, but if I can keep it a while longer I may try to mount it on the handlebars somewhere with a Ram mount or Techmount.

 

Like Biggzed said, since it's an EPA-compliant setup I wouldn't assume it is optimal for either performance or cooling.

If you can make it detonate at will try to figure out at what point it occurs. Use the old tape-on-the-throttle trick and mark 0% and 100% TP, then interpolate for 50, 25, 10, etc. I did this and it turned out to be very accurate, but mine's an '07 with cables, so who knows how this would work with TBW. I later verified that this worked well after connecting an LCD-100 to the PCIII I had at that time. You could also check low TP input at idle with the PC software running.

Another idea is to have someone ride with you and hold a laptop computer connected to the PCV. When it detonates have the rider check the TP and RPM's, and that'll help you isolate where the detonation is occurring. Then pull over, knock the advance down 1% at a time in the appropriate places until it is no longer heard. For example, if you hear it at 2500 @ 20% TP I would retard 1° from 2000-3000 @ 15-20%, maybe also at 40%.

 

The PCV can adjust ignition timing ą10° in 250 locations within the RPM/TP range, which is far more adjustability than most riders will need. It won't adjust in accordance with detonation, but IMO this isn't necessary in the vast majority of cases. Tweaking the advance with the PCV attached is not a difficult process.

This is a gross misconception. The PCV sends no info to the ECU at all, and in fact the ECU doesn't even know it is attached, but does alter the ECU's data and forwards it to the injectors, etc. The injectors do not know if you provide 10% more fuel from TTS or that same amount with a PCV, as all either is doing is adjusting the pulse-width. There is no net difference between the two in the way the injectors react, so to say that one does a better job than the other given a proper tune is simply not true.

Keep in mind that when you adjust your AFR's or timing in the TTS software you are also sending altered data to the injectors, and that is the general idea of all tuners.

In its default mode AT will allow ą20% changes in the base map via the trim table, but this can be changed by the user up to ą100%. I have my "max enleanment" set to 35% and "max enrichment" at 20%.

Since I'm running very rich in the cruise range of the base map and very lean AT target AFR's, I can take advantage of the rich base map to cool the bike when needed yet run the leaner closed-loop mode (AT) most of the time for better mileage. This can be toggled with the map switch at any time on the fly. Because of this strategy I'm seeing double-digit negatives, up to -31%, in some areas of the cruise range, but this is expected. AT has absolutely no trouble adjusting to these wide differences in tuning, and you don't need to "accept trims" periodically to give AT less work to do.

While on this subject a few more things should be noted. PCV-AT will allow closed-loop operation in the entire RPM/TP range, not just up to ~50% TP. TTS uses the stock narrow-band sensors which limit you further, allowing adjustment only between 14.2 and 15.0:1 AFR. The PCV-AT with its wide-band sensors allows ~11-16:1, far leaner and richer than anyone would likely use. The lower limit of 14.2 would be more than enough for me, but many would want a richer configuration at part-throttle to better control heat.

Thus, you can attach a PCV-AT with any map, even one completely zeroed, and in a short riding cycle you'll have a map that is correct throughout the RPM/TP range and without a dyno tune. It will continue to tune by trimming the base map at the rate of 50x/sec. at all times while you ride. To tune TTS above 50% TP you must perform a dyno-tune or install an accurate map that has already been created on another bike. No matter what is said about V-Tune, you have no feedback above 50% TP and you simply can't do it accurately. That's not to denigrate TTS but I only want to point out that both tuners have their minor strengths and weaknesses in features provided, but both are very competent tuning solutions.

That's what the MAP sensor is for. If you tune a RK in WI and use the map on an SG of the same year-model in LA you will have an optimal map. The MAP sensor makes adjustments for all of the above environmental differences, except possibly major differences in compression, although that shouldn't be a factor in the majority of cases. Remember that HD must adhere to strict EPA regulations, and they use one ECU configuration (map) for 49 states (don't know about CA). If there was much deviation from one bike or location to another this strategy would not work and many bikes would not comply.

The knock-sensor, MAP, and all other sensors related to the ECU work unaltered with the PCV attached.

Frankly, I don't think you quite understand how a PCV works, and the fact is that like TTS, SEST, T'Max etc. it is a very good tuner in the hands of a competent human tuner. There are some, and you seem to be included, who think the "piggyback" configuration is is an inherent deficiency, but it is not so in a functional sense. All that is necessary is to have a correct injector pulse-width applied at the correct time to achieve proper combustion, and you can achieve that equally with any of the flash-based tuners as well as the PCV.

 

This isn't necessary. All he needs to do is have Fuel Moto provide a timing table for his bike.

 

Have Jamie send you a correct map for your bike, then copy the ignition-advance table over to your existing map using cut-and-paste. You can also transfer a table, but I haven't tried that method.

 

No point in continuing I guess. Sorry Iclick, I thought you were more interested in working on your bike than just promoting a product. I've been very clear that I know nothing about the PCV, which is why I'm asking questions. I would have figured you were more interested in working with your fuel injection and ECM.

My bad.