Can a cat become restrictive, you decide
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Joined: Oct 2009
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From: Here
I just had a long interesting conversation with one of the techs at Random Technologies, the guys who build high flow cats for performance automotive applications. My take away was there are too many variables to say what a given effect will be. There is no rule of thumb to say what degree of enrichment will be tolerated by the cat, 14.2, 13.8, 13.4 or whatever, the efficiency of the engine, the cam, and the resultant effects on the catalyst need to be measured to determine what will work for a specific application. I realize that guy who makes and sells the XIEDs said testing was done and reported that the 13.8 was good to go. but I'm a little apprehensive about testing results published by the same folks selling the product, it would be interesting to see the entire test, conditions, variables, and results so you can make your own decision about what is acceptable. Interesting note, that in normal operation running a factory near stoich tune, the temp of the catalyst will be around 1200F, when you start dumping unburnt fuel, as in enrichment or decel effects, the catalyst temps can get over 2000F. So, if you are running an enriched tune for the purpose of heat reduction, and you are still running the catalyst, you are probably actually creating more heat in the catalyst. How much enrichment actually causes undesirable effects is hard to say, for a given application. I'm an a advocate of the near stoich tune for my streetable machines, the power gained from enrichment can only be noticed on a dyno sheet, you'll never feel it on a relatively small displacement 2 cylinder engine like ours. Yeah, running rich technically makes more power but it's not enough to make a noticeable difference with small displacement engines, and most of us arent trying to squeeze out an extra 10th of a second on the street for the big win and payout. But running rich is cooler; down to 13.8 the only thing cooler is the exhaust gas temps, CHTs are the same, if you want to run cooler, change cams and keep the lean, clean, crisp, efficient, factory EPA type tune, or put one of those nut shields on. No matter what you do, you are still straddling the rear cylinder and its exhaust headpipe; I don't know why this bike is so hot.
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,916
Likes: 31
From: earth
I've seen Steve Mullen's test results and Consumer feedback reports on how the Xied's actually dropped temps on stock bike's as well as bike's with stage 1. I haven't seen your test results. I want to keep my harley stock as possible. I don't want it to look like something out of a Transformer movie just to drop a couple of degree's. JMO
Hey Ronp42, how you been since the last time you got your tit in a wringer over something I said about XIEDs that you didnt like. Not sure what you were reading but I surely didnt bash your beloved budget performance enrichment device in any way. Guess you thought you would just go ahead and put me in my place and shut me down with the test results comment, huh. Sorry, not happening. First off I never claimed to have any test results of my own. I merely suggested that legitimate unbiased testing, not conducted by the people selling the product, would be necessary to support any claims. I also posted that I would like to see those results, why didnt you just post some links for all to see, you know to add something positive to the thread, instead of just taking a shot at me. If youre so dead set on keeping your bike stock, why dont you just put gas in it, ride it, and shut your mouth; I mean really, youre only dropping a couple degrees with the XIEDs too, so why bother. Oh yeah, and thanks for derailing this otherwise adult and productive discussion. BTW I really dont give a **** about XIEDs, or any other cheap charley tuning widgets, I spent my time, energy, and money learning how to tune. Too bad you will never know the joy of riding a properly tuned machine.
Road Warrior
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,456
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From: Deep South, Louisiana
We have a fleet of approx. 100 vehicles where I work. We change out about 4+ a year from getting clogged up. When ever it happens the tech does some research and finds that drivers are filling up at the same fuel station. Alway non name brand fuel.
Account Retired
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,245
Likes: 12
From: Here
Hey Ronp42, how you been since the last time you got your tit in a wringer over something I said about XIEDs that you didnt like. Not sure what you were reading but I surely didnt bash your beloved budget performance enrichment device in any way. Guess you thought you would just go ahead and put me in my place and shut me down with the test results comment, huh. Sorry, not happening. First off I never claimed to have any test results of my own. I merely suggested that legitimate unbiased testing, not conducted by the people selling the product, would be necessary to support any claims. I also posted that I would like to see those results, why didnt you just post some links for all to see, you know to add something positive to the thread, instead of just taking a shot at me. If youre so dead set on keeping your bike stock, why dont you just put gas in it, ride it, and shut your mouth; I mean really, youre only dropping a couple degrees with the XIEDs too, so why bother. Oh yeah, and thanks for derailing this otherwise adult and productive discussion. BTW I really dont give a **** about XIEDs, or any other cheap charley tuning widgets, I spent my time, energy, and money learning how to tune. Too bad you will never know the joy of riding a properly tuned machine.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 5,624
Likes: 4,078
From: Virginia
Just a few points from someone who is not an engineer!
1. Motorcycle exhausts are very different from cars, much more free flowing for one thing.
2. All motorycyle exhausts have a certain amount of "back pressure" engineered in, thats why putting straight pipes on bikes makes them run like crap. Changing headers changes how efficiently your engine runs. Dont want to bore anyone with scavenging and reversion etc.
3. Harley runs narrow band sensors on these bikes, unlike the wide band for some autos. Which means most of the time, we ride in steady state(closed loop) and 14.6/14.7 AFR. That is not going to degrade your cats. Unless you get rid of your o2 sensors with another aftermarket system, the closed loop max adjustment is about 0.5 with these sensors. Thats still not going to do it.
Bottom line is the main issue (heat) is due to a air cooled engine running at 14.7 AFR, there are ways to help fix that but cats on cycles dont cause that.
1. Motorcycle exhausts are very different from cars, much more free flowing for one thing.
2. All motorycyle exhausts have a certain amount of "back pressure" engineered in, thats why putting straight pipes on bikes makes them run like crap. Changing headers changes how efficiently your engine runs. Dont want to bore anyone with scavenging and reversion etc.
3. Harley runs narrow band sensors on these bikes, unlike the wide band for some autos. Which means most of the time, we ride in steady state(closed loop) and 14.6/14.7 AFR. That is not going to degrade your cats. Unless you get rid of your o2 sensors with another aftermarket system, the closed loop max adjustment is about 0.5 with these sensors. Thats still not going to do it.
Bottom line is the main issue (heat) is due to a air cooled engine running at 14.7 AFR, there are ways to help fix that but cats on cycles dont cause that.
Road Master
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,161
Likes: 296
From: TEXAS
Effects of oils on Cats
API Certification, Phosphorus & ZDDP
Never use a non-API certified synthetic oil (there are many of these on the market). The problem with the non-API certified synthetics is that they contain too much phosphorus (in the form of the additive ZDDP (Zinc Dialkyl Dithiophosphates)). The API has limited the amount of phosphorus because phosphorus shortens the life of the catalytic converter. These oils are fine for snowmobiles, motorcycles, and older cars that don't have a catalytic converter, and the extra ZDDP does provide additional wear protection. Unfortunately, the marketers of some the non-certified oils do not explicitly and honestly state the reason for the lack of API certification. You can check the status of API certification on the API web site. Be certain to go not just by the manufacturer name but by the actual product as well. This is because a manufacturer will sometimes have both certified and non-certified products. Suffice it to say that Mobil 1, Royal Purple, Castrol, & Havoline all make synthetic oils that are API certified and that can be purchased at auto parts stores and other retail outlets. Amsoil has one product line, XL-7500 that is API certified, but it's other lines contain too much ZDDP to be certified and should not be used in vehicles with catalytic converters
I found this interesting never thought about the effects of oil on catalytic converters until I read an article in Thunder Press about it.
Never use a non-API certified synthetic oil (there are many of these on the market). The problem with the non-API certified synthetics is that they contain too much phosphorus (in the form of the additive ZDDP (Zinc Dialkyl Dithiophosphates)). The API has limited the amount of phosphorus because phosphorus shortens the life of the catalytic converter. These oils are fine for snowmobiles, motorcycles, and older cars that don't have a catalytic converter, and the extra ZDDP does provide additional wear protection. Unfortunately, the marketers of some the non-certified oils do not explicitly and honestly state the reason for the lack of API certification. You can check the status of API certification on the API web site. Be certain to go not just by the manufacturer name but by the actual product as well. This is because a manufacturer will sometimes have both certified and non-certified products. Suffice it to say that Mobil 1, Royal Purple, Castrol, & Havoline all make synthetic oils that are API certified and that can be purchased at auto parts stores and other retail outlets. Amsoil has one product line, XL-7500 that is API certified, but it's other lines contain too much ZDDP to be certified and should not be used in vehicles with catalytic converters
I found this interesting never thought about the effects of oil on catalytic converters until I read an article in Thunder Press about it.
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,916
Likes: 31
From: earth
Hey, sounds as if you are the one with your tit in a wringer. I was adding something positive to the thread, I responded to Port Dawg's question. I could care less if you don't like the xied's. I simply see no need to spend a ton of money for something I don't need for my style of riding. I also know what a properly tuned bike runs and feels like. I did my reserach, you do your own. As for you telling me to shut my mouth, why don't you come down and shut it earthman?
Hey, sounds as if you are the one with your tit in a wringer. I was adding something positive to the thread, I responded to Port Dawg's question. I could care less if you don't like the xied's. I simply see no need to spend a ton of money for something I don't need for my style of riding. I also know what a properly tuned bike runs and feels like. I did my reserach, you do your own. As for you telling me to shut my mouth, why don't you come down and shut it earthman?
Quote:
Originally Posted by fabrik8r
I just had a long interesting conversation with one of the techs at Random Technologies, the guys who build high flow cats for performance automotive applications. My take away was there are too many variables to say what a given effect will be. There is no rule of thumb to say what degree of enrichment will be tolerated by the cat, 14.2, 13.8, 13.4 or whatever, the efficiency of the engine, the cam, and the resultant effects on the catalyst need to be measured to determine what will work for a specific application. I realize that guy who makes and sells the XIEDs said testing was done and reported that the 13.8 was good to go. but I'm a little apprehensive about testing results published by the same folks selling the product, it would be interesting to see the entire test, conditions, variables, and results so you can make your own decision about what is acceptable. Interesting note, that in normal operation running a factory near stoich tune, the temp of the catalyst will be around 1200F, when you start dumping unburnt fuel, as in enrichment or decel effects, the catalyst temps can get over 2000F. So, if you are running an enriched tune for the purpose of heat reduction, and you are still running the catalyst, you are probably actually creating more heat in the catalyst. How much enrichment actually causes undesirable effects is hard to say, for a given application. I'm an a advocate of the near stoich tune for my streetable machines, the power gained from enrichment can only be noticed on a dyno sheet, you'll never feel it on a relatively small displacement 2 cylinder engine like ours. Yeah, running rich technically makes more power but it's not enough to make a noticeable difference with small displacement engines, and most of us arent trying to squeeze out an extra 10th of a second on the street for the big win and payout. But running rich is cooler; down to 13.8 the only thing cooler is the exhaust gas temps, CHTs are the same, if you want to run cooler, change cams and keep the lean, clean, crisp, efficient, factory EPA type tune, or put one of those nut shields on. No matter what you do, you are still straddling the rear cylinder and its exhaust headpipe; I don't know why this bike is so hot.
I've seen Steve Mullen's test results and Consumer feedback reports on how the Xied's actually dropped temps on stock bike's as well as bike's with stage 1. I haven't seen your test results. I want to keep my harley stock as possible. I don't want it to look like something out of a Transformer movie just to drop a couple of degree's. JMO
__________________
That was you responding to Port Dawg huh? Retard. Move along folks nothin to see here.
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Account Retired
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,245
Likes: 12
From: Here
My bad, must have been a different Ronp42 that replied directly to me via quote, and challenged me unprovoked.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fabrik8r
I just had a long interesting conversation with one of the techs at Random Technologies, the guys who build high flow cats for performance automotive applications. My take away was there are too many variables to say what a given effect will be. There is no rule of thumb to say what degree of enrichment will be tolerated by the cat, 14.2, 13.8, 13.4 or whatever, the efficiency of the engine, the cam, and the resultant effects on the catalyst need to be measured to determine what will work for a specific application. I realize that guy who makes and sells the XIEDs said testing was done and reported that the 13.8 was good to go. but I'm a little apprehensive about testing results published by the same folks selling the product, it would be interesting to see the entire test, conditions, variables, and results so you can make your own decision about what is acceptable. Interesting note, that in normal operation running a factory near stoich tune, the temp of the catalyst will be around 1200F, when you start dumping unburnt fuel, as in enrichment or decel effects, the catalyst temps can get over 2000F. So, if you are running an enriched tune for the purpose of heat reduction, and you are still running the catalyst, you are probably actually creating more heat in the catalyst. How much enrichment actually causes undesirable effects is hard to say, for a given application. I'm an a advocate of the near stoich tune for my streetable machines, the power gained from enrichment can only be noticed on a dyno sheet, you'll never feel it on a relatively small displacement 2 cylinder engine like ours. Yeah, running rich technically makes more power but it's not enough to make a noticeable difference with small displacement engines, and most of us arent trying to squeeze out an extra 10th of a second on the street for the big win and payout. But running rich is cooler; down to 13.8 the only thing cooler is the exhaust gas temps, CHTs are the same, if you want to run cooler, change cams and keep the lean, clean, crisp, efficient, factory EPA type tune, or put one of those nut shields on. No matter what you do, you are still straddling the rear cylinder and its exhaust headpipe; I don't know why this bike is so hot.
I've seen Steve Mullen's test results and Consumer feedback reports on how the Xied's actually dropped temps on stock bike's as well as bike's with stage 1. I haven't seen your test results. I want to keep my harley stock as possible. I don't want it to look like something out of a Transformer movie just to drop a couple of degree's. JMO
__________________
That was you responding to Port Dawg huh? Retard. Move along folks nothin to see here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fabrik8r
I just had a long interesting conversation with one of the techs at Random Technologies, the guys who build high flow cats for performance automotive applications. My take away was there are too many variables to say what a given effect will be. There is no rule of thumb to say what degree of enrichment will be tolerated by the cat, 14.2, 13.8, 13.4 or whatever, the efficiency of the engine, the cam, and the resultant effects on the catalyst need to be measured to determine what will work for a specific application. I realize that guy who makes and sells the XIEDs said testing was done and reported that the 13.8 was good to go. but I'm a little apprehensive about testing results published by the same folks selling the product, it would be interesting to see the entire test, conditions, variables, and results so you can make your own decision about what is acceptable. Interesting note, that in normal operation running a factory near stoich tune, the temp of the catalyst will be around 1200F, when you start dumping unburnt fuel, as in enrichment or decel effects, the catalyst temps can get over 2000F. So, if you are running an enriched tune for the purpose of heat reduction, and you are still running the catalyst, you are probably actually creating more heat in the catalyst. How much enrichment actually causes undesirable effects is hard to say, for a given application. I'm an a advocate of the near stoich tune for my streetable machines, the power gained from enrichment can only be noticed on a dyno sheet, you'll never feel it on a relatively small displacement 2 cylinder engine like ours. Yeah, running rich technically makes more power but it's not enough to make a noticeable difference with small displacement engines, and most of us arent trying to squeeze out an extra 10th of a second on the street for the big win and payout. But running rich is cooler; down to 13.8 the only thing cooler is the exhaust gas temps, CHTs are the same, if you want to run cooler, change cams and keep the lean, clean, crisp, efficient, factory EPA type tune, or put one of those nut shields on. No matter what you do, you are still straddling the rear cylinder and its exhaust headpipe; I don't know why this bike is so hot.
I've seen Steve Mullen's test results and Consumer feedback reports on how the Xied's actually dropped temps on stock bike's as well as bike's with stage 1. I haven't seen your test results. I want to keep my harley stock as possible. I don't want it to look like something out of a Transformer movie just to drop a couple of degree's. JMO
__________________
That was you responding to Port Dawg huh? Retard. Move along folks nothin to see here.
