Done did it. It's called optimizing the VEs and the timing. I'm actually at .981 Lambda (14.4 AFR), but as I said, the bulk of my Lambda table is still in closed loop (no richer than .977/14.34). There's no reason whatsoever to run any richer than that at cruise (which, as I said, is where I'm running that).

Simply put, what cools the bike is having the VE tables optimized so that the cylinders are packed with the proper air/fuel mixture, and having the timing optimized so that the maximum amount of that mixture burns.


So thanks for the good luck wish. Don't need it though, as I understand how the ECM works and I know how to program it.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by best most efficient way to go.

Best most efficient way to go cost wise? You said you don't want to pay another $1000. If you want something that will work well and not cost a lot then the Xieds will probably work for you. They don't have any of the fancy functions, and they may not get it done the absolute best way, but they do get it done and work well for both stock and stage one setups.

If you mean the most versatile way to go then a tuner would be the way to go. Many opinions on which one to get. I like the TTS, but chances are you will need a dyno not everyone can pull off the auto tuning part. Probably the best thing to do here is find a verified VERY GOOD local tuner and let him help you decided which tuner to get since he will most likely be tuning it. Getting maps through the mail for setups close to yours but not exactly yours can lead to misery.

A stage one setup is three things:
1. An air cleaner, to let the air in.
2. Exhaust to let the air out, that is slipons With or Without new pipes, and With or Without the cat.
3. A tuner

So yes you do need an AC. You don't necessarily need a new AC, you can cut away the back (black) plate on your stock air cleaner so it can breathe. Someone on this forum has a writeup with pictures of how they did it.

Also, as stated above, many people get by just fine with the Xieds and save a buck instead of going down the tuner road. But there is no way to know for sure if they will work for you until you try them. But then the tuner road can be very expensive and fail also, many people have jumped from tuner to turner trying to find one that works for them, each setup costs a lot of money. That is why a good local tuner is important, it can save a lot of money and headaches. Be weary of local tuners, your tune will only be as good as the tuner you hire.



So the question is, do you just want the bike to run well and get it done cheap or are you the **** type who likes to delve into all the nuances and be statistically correct in all things?

For the former, get the Xieds
For the latter, get a tuner

I have gone down both roads, If I were to get a new bike with a stage one setup I would go with the Xieds, if they did not work I would sell them (you would take a loss, but not much since they don't cost a lot to begin with) then I would head down the tuner road.

 

Had the SEPST and a so called professional tune by the best dealer/tuner in the area. When I changed the cams, exhaust, and rear sprocket, I went with the ref perf. I am happier now that before.



http://www.revperf.com/Precision/raves.html

 

If you want my two cents worth, save yourself time, money and aggravation. Install a Thunder Max. Its a new ECM that self tunes. It doesn't fool the stock ECM, it replaces it. I had a SERT for my bike. I had the dealer tune it and was unhappy with it. Still had alot of decel popping and back firing. I went to an independent shop and sat down with the owner/tuner for close to an hour. He explained how for him to do a good tune it takes many runs and 6 to 7 hours on the dyno. I don't know about you but I plan on making more changes down the road and don't want to pay for a retune that may or may not work right every time. I asked him what his opinion was and he said to install a Thunder Max. Best money I've spent on the bike yet hands down. My bike runs great, good throttle response, decel popping gone, the idol smooths out once up to operating temp. Its easy to use if you read the manual. I just changed the stock 8 degree injecters to 25 degree injecters and re-mapped it. It runs great and will continue to improve over the next several rides. I like having conrtol over the tuning of my ride and not have to pay someone and hope they know what thier doing. Do some reserch and thread searching, I think its a great way to go and I'll be putting one on my wifes bike along with pipes and an air cleaner next spring.

 

'05Train
Done did it. It's called optimizing the VEs and the timing. I'm actually at .981 Lambda (14.4 AFR), but as I said, the bulk of my Lambda table is still in closed loop (no richer than .977/14.34). There's no reason whatsoever to run any richer than that at cruise (which, as I said, is where I'm running that).



Let’s see here, if I’m not mistaken 14.34 is richer than 14.7, so you admit 14.7 is to lean since you made your own richer than that. Very good, that’s all I was saying, 14.7 is to lean. Changing the AFR is not a cure all but it is effective and in some cases it is enough. I have my cruise range set at 14.2 and like it just fine right there.

Simply put, what cools the bike is having the VE tables optimized so that the cylinders are packed with the proper air/fuel mixture, and having the timing optimized so that the maximum amount of that mixture burns.



Yep, you got that correct. Those are the things that have my bike running great, and that is why I bought a tuner so I can adjust that stuff. But you do not have to do all that, doing all that with a tuner is the optimal way, not the only way. A simple thing like Xied’s that change the AFR to 13.8 across the board can be all someone wants and will work very well for them. You do not have to get a tuner to make your bike run better. I don’t want to argue all the fine points with you, I’m not saying a tuner is not the best most accurate way to go, I’m saying some people don’t want to do all that, and depending on what they are trying to do, they may not need to do all that. I’ve had a stage one and used only Xied’s and the bike ran great, I’m not guessing about that, I’ve done it. At the time that was all I needed, it sounds like the original poster is in that same boat right now.


So thanks for the good luck wish. Don't need it though, as I understand how the ECM works and I know how to program it.
But you did have to make the AFR richer than 14.7 didn’t you, if you tried to keep it at 14.7 you would need a lot of luck wouldn’t you. You proved my point. I too understand how the ECM works but I’m not trying to dazzle anyone with my brilliance. I’m just keeping it simple for the OP and not throwing in a bunch of stuff he did not ask for. He stated he does not know a lot about this stuff, why confuse him? His question was a little confusing in itself and maybe he wanted to know all the ins and outs, but to me he was asking if he HAD to get a tuner or if he could GET BY with only the Xied. Don’t worry so much about what I didn’t say; I had my reasons for not saying all that; try to listen to what I did say and why I said it. It all has to do with what the OP meant with his question. What you are telling him is going to end up costing him the $1000 which he specifically said he does not want to do. So what is the other alternative? The Xied’s of course.


Pine Tree
I have to agree with '05...you've bought into the notion that 14.7 is lean.
No, I have not bought into anything, you assume too much.

In reality, 14.7 is leaner then 12.0 but richer then 17.0. But changes in timing (even at 14.7) can result in cooler or hotter temps too.

Be it either AFR or Lambda, those "magic" switching numbers are not all that ends all. It's not as simple as that and sometimes just dumping in fuel can result in poor performance and even damage.
I never said it was, thanks for the education.

Both of you guys mean well, that is obvious, but so do I. We are just approaching this from different angles. Let’s not start picking at each other by being condescending and offensive. Sometimes I think this forum us more about someone proving they are better and smarter than the other guy than it is about helping each other.

 

All you guys that are knocking the Dobeck fueler are dead wrong about it being more than adequate device for a Stage I upgrade; maybe you ought to educate yourselves on the subject. As others have pointed out, the OEM ECM is a pretty sophisticated piece of electronics and adding a Dobeck unit will not change anything about the ECM or the way it operates. It is the only fueler I would recommend for a Stage I upgrade; the others are not even in the same league.

Think about it as though the bike is carbureted. I know, that may be a real reach for some of you that have never run carbed bike; but stretch your brains a bit and try. Upgrade a carbed motor to Stage I and what do you do; you rejet the carburetor; different pilot, different main, maybe even a different needle or a change in needle position and your good. You don't worry about lamda measurement.

The air fuel ratio is the most common reference term used for mixtures in internal combustion engines. It is the ratio between the mass of air and the mass of fuel in the fuel-air mix at any given moment. For pure octane the stoichiometric mixture is approximately 14.7:1, or λ of 1.00 exactly. In naturally aspirated engines powered by octane, maximum power is frequently reached at AFRs ranging from 12.5 to 13.3:1 or λ of 0.850 to 0.901.

Lambda (λ) is the ratio of actual AFR to stoichiometry for a given mixture. Lambda of 1.0 is at stoichiometry, rich mixtures are less than 1.0, and lean mixtures are greater than 1.0. There is a direct relationship between lambda and AFR. To calculate AFR from a given lambda, multiply the measured lambda by the stoichiometric AFR for that fuel. Alternatively, to recover lambda from an AFR, divide AFR by the stoichiometric AFR for that fuel.

Because the composition of common fuels varies seasonally, and because many modern vehicles can handle different fuels, when tuning, it does make more sense to talk about lambda values rather than AFR. However, most practical AFR devices actually measure the amount of residual oxygen (for lean mixes) or unburnt hydrocarbons (for rich mixtures) in the exhaust gas. So, working with AFR is close enough for most anyone on this forum.

As for timing, the stock ignition map will work fine with Stage I upgrades; no need to buy a programmable ignition.

I agree that a SERT or TTS system (run the SERT on one of my bikes) is the optimum way to go. However, I don't believe that there is sufficient cost/benefit in the application of such systems for a Stage I upgraged, particulalry if Stage I is as far as the upgrades will go. Whe spend $1000 when $250 will do and put control of the "tune" in the hands of the user. JMHO.

 

The modifications you have made are not complicated, so keep the tuning simple. Call Jamie or Keith @ Fuel Moto and tell them what you’ve done. They will give you good and affordable advice. Having made similar alterations, that is what I did and my bike runs great. Good Luck!!

 

No, you're not getting the point. I have parts of my map at 14.7, I have parts of it at 14.4, and I have parts of it at 12.3. There is no magical AFR or Lambda value you want the entire map set to. Simply throwing fuel at your engine does nothing of value other than burning more gas.

 

Interesting thread..gentlemen..

 

Revolution Performance ECM. Drop in and ride-no tuning necessary. Its simplicity is its strong point and based on your self proclaimed lack of knowledge with this stuff its probably your best option. Its what I went with and very happy. Either way you need to get some type of tuner.