What are you running as far as temps go cruzmisl w/the rev. per.?

 

WOW!!! Thanks for the responses guys but I believe I am more confused now than ever.

Maybe I am asking the wrong questions here (although the one guy did start to answer it with explaing a little about the Stage One).

As of right now, I do not have anything other than the American Custom header pipe with cat removed and two American Custom Bomber mufflers. That's it, no Air Cleaner or anything else. I never really noticed any heat issues like I keep reading and understand that if anything, my temps will go down by having the cat removed. I'm not overly concerned with heat. My main focus is on the hestitation in throttle right around the 2,000 RPM range.

I definitely plan on doing more work to my 2011 FLHX103 in the future as money (and woman) allows so I am kind of looking ahead, but would prefer to not have to throw $1,000 down now, and then re-tune later. I might end up going with some cams but I sincerely doubt I will be modifying the motor to much.

I just wanted to know if a Stage One would fix the hesitation? Also, what exactly the Stage One comes with? The one gentleman said that a stage one is and air cleaner, exhaust, and tuner. I appreciate that answer but we are probably talking about different sides here. I think he is saying that is a stage one package in regards to engine upgrades. I was told that a stage one would be a download from a computer into your bike and it is around $150 to have that done. What I didn't find out was if you have to buy the A/C seperate or if that comes with the $150 download?

If the stage one does NOT fix this issue, I guess I will start researching the different tuners. I understand I need to make a choice of either spending the necessary money to buy a tuner that can be adjusted (whether it is only a little or infinitely) to suit the needs of the equipment being used and the preference of the rider, OR buy something that will "fool" the bike into running smoother. I think at this point, I will have to research the XIEDS and the Thundermax, as well as the other easier to operate and less expensive tuners suggested in the thread to see if this is what I'm looking for. I guess really my main question is about the stage one. What is it exactly and will it solve my hesitation problem or should I skip it entirely and just go with a tuner?

Thanks again guys.

 

All this info makes me wish I would have kept my carb'd '04

 

I have kinda watched this thread from the sideline and because you are having a bit of trouble getting a plan put together I will try to help out. Having tuned several thousand bikes and serving many, many, more in the motorcycle community specializing specifically in EFI tuning I have a pretty good idea where you are coming from.

A stage 1 download will likely not fix your problem. After 06 all of the stage downloads are EPA compliant and a typical stage 1 flash now is simply a rev limiter change and a slight ignition timing change. From 2008 up the VE tables are not even changed from the factory calibration to the stage 1 download in the cals that we have read. If the bike appears to run better with the stage 1 it is simply because the adaptive control is within it's window of adjustment just as with the stock calibration, it may run OK with an exhaust or AC swap but will not be tuned optimally and will still look to the stock AFR/Lambda targets.

Xied's may work to richen the mixture slighly in some applications, however all they are doing is slighly offsetting the reference voltage generated by the O2 sensors. Since the sensors only really switch from 800-100mV (approx 14.28-15.0 AFR), claims that they can accurately adjust the mixture to 13.8 is not really possible as this is outside the limitations of where the sensors themselves can measure, you may get some O2 hits however it will not be accurate enough for fuel control. The other issue is if the ECM does adjust the mixture to what is actually a skewed voltage signal because it thinks the mixture is leaner that it really is and then stores an adaptive value this block learn will overshoot the actual target as the actual control data has been skewed and it can be overly rich in the transition areas and other parts of the calibration.

Based on your specific application and planned mods you will really need a product that gives you the necessary fuel and ignition timing control. The best advice I can give is to use the product you or your tuner feel most comfortable working with. There are a wide range of products ranging from flash tuners like Power Vision, TTS, SESPT, and Direct Link, to replacement ECM's with Auto Tune like Thundermax and Daytona Twin Tec, and Rev EMS which is somewhat of a hybrid that uses the Delphi ECM along with WB sensors. There are also piggyback modules that give you good control such as the Dynojet Power Commander, Fuelpak, and others. However beware as some of these products only give the end user limited control, they can only add fuel, and they do not adjust ignition timing. It all comes down to what your combination requires and the mods you have planned, a tuning product is only as good as the combination of parts you are tuning and the support available to get it tuned properly.

We specialize in tuning products and work with customers in the same situation as yourself all day, every day. We carry a wide range of products to fit must budgets and builds, we have a huge database of maps, and also offer unlimited tuning support. If you would like more info you are welcome to contact us at 877-729-4754

 

The stage one download you are talking about does not come with an air cleaner. It only means you are reprogramming your ECM or turner to match the stage one hardware you put on your bike, it is a map with all the adjustments you want to make. You setup your adjustments in a small program on your computer and you download it to your ECM or turner. It is strickly software, not hardware. The software changes the VE tables, timing, AFR and a lot more depending on the tuner you have.

Even though you don't quite have a stage one since you don't have the air cleaner you can still get a download (have your ECM flashed) and it might cure your problem, maybe not. It gets expensive paying $150 for every attempt, cheaper just to buy a tuner that you can adjust yourself. Then you would also be setup to make future adjustments when they are needed. You are talking about CAMs in the future, in that case I would just go with a tuner and skip the Xieds.

 

Unbelieveable!!! The Thundermax website says their tuner is $989. Right there is almost the $1,000 I do not want to spend.

Fuel Moto, thank you for finally responding. I believe I will be giving you guys a call.

 

Wow, I really don't know where to begin with this thread.

That's a stretch, as it maintains its designed AFR only in at idle and into the cruise range, but not above about 50% throttle. If you add an aftermarket exhaust it will keep this range at that same level but anything in open-loop will remain as is and likely won't be optimal. Some models, including my '07, have AFRs at and near WOT abnormally rich (12.5) to compensate for the ultra-lean settings for the cruise range when the throttle is opened quickly. When you open the intake and exhaust the closed-loop area will operate about the same as stock, kept at 14.6 by the NB O2 sensors, while open-loop region will not change.

The Stage 1 "download" from HD only changes the tune installed in the ECM, and for most late-model bikes does little except make some minor spark-advance changes and increase the rev limit, so I doubt if you'll fix your problem with that alone. I and many around here are not fans of the Stage 1 "download" from HD, as for $150 it doesn't do much except increase the rev limit and make some minor changes to compensate for a more free-flowing intake and exhaust, but I wonder if it even does this much. To make any meaningful difference in the way the bike runs you will require a real tuner, and there are many to choose from. Some of the ones mentioned here are good ideas, others not, IMO. They all have a niche in the marketplace, however, even those which are limited in functionality, but which one is right for you is not easily answered with the info we now have.

Some "real tuners" (my wording) would include but not be limited to the PCV, Power Vision (PV), TTS, SEPST, and Thundermax. Any of these has a niche and fit certain riders better than the next tuner, but there is no "best tuner" for every rider.

IEDs and their variants are nothing more than resistors fitted between the O2 sensors and the ECM to change the signal coming from the sensors. This will provide a fixed AFR (always richer) but only in the closed-loop area, and they do nothing beyond that. Period. They do fit a niche, however, for those who want to stay relatively stock (e.g. aftermarket slip-ons only) and want the bike to run a bit cooler and possibly have better throttle response at part-throttle. Claims that they can alter AFRs below about 14.2 will almost assuredly cause the bike to throw codes, as this is beyond the physical capability of the stock NB O2 sensors. I even doubt if they can do what is claimed if that value is below the sensor threshold.

Everyone has an opinion and I'll give mine. For most riders I think the PCV is the best bargain in tuners, especially if you buy from a vendor like Fuel Moto who has a large database of maps to choose from. They will have one that is optimized for your bike and likely be able to upgrade you later should you decide to make performance-oriented changes like cams, head work, etc. Some say that tuning on one bike in WI won't provide an accurate tune for the same year-model operated in another environment, but this isn't so. The ECM is capable of compensating for altitude and temperature changes from its on-board sensors (MAP, etc.), and these sensors are functional in open- as well as stock closed-loop. Remember that bikes sold before '07 used open-loop ECMs and did quite well. O2 sensors were added only to conform to EPA mandates, not because they are some sort of performance panacea. The PCV is $300 and it will include an accurate tune for your bike. Here are some comments:

PCV: "Piggy-back" module that intercepts the fuel and spark signals from the ECM. It is fully tunable on a dyno and is effective and reasonably priced. You can add a simple on-off switch and toggle between two maps (e.g. one richer for cooling and another leaner for mileage) on the fly. No other tuner can do this, AFAIK. It also can be upgraded to Auto-Tune, which will enable the PCV to auto-tune AFRs throughout the entire operating range.

Power Vision: Flash-based tuner that accesses the tables within the ECM. If purchased from FM it will also include an accurate tune for your bike, but at ~$550 may be overkill for most riders. Most simply want a good-running bike without the rigmarole of lunatic-fringe tuning exercises. Don't get me wrong. I used the PCIII, then the PCV, followed by the PCV Auto-Tune, and am now using PV. One advantage of PV is that it has its own display unit which will allow datalogging without the use of a computer, and many useful parameters can be monitored while riding--e.g., engine temperature, gas mileage, fuel used, Lambda, spark advance, throttle position, and a few dozen others. It also can tandem with the AT-100 auto-tune kit which although is not an auto-tune device with PV it will allow closed-loop tuning across the entire operating range, and the PV can even tune spark-advance. AFAIK this is the only tuner that will do this, but it will not do true on-the-fly auto-tuning of AFRs like PCV-AT or T'Max. With its advanced tuning capabilities you won't need it, IMO.

TTS: This flash-based sequel to the old SERT works well, but despite claims by some will require a dyno-tune to get the open-loop area tuned properly, especially after making displacement, cam, or other performance upgrades. It costs around $500 with the cable kit. Any datalogging will require a laptop computer attached to the bike while riding. Like PV it is an advanced tuner than may be overkill for most.

T'Max: Replaces the stock ECM and is a true auto-tuning device for AFRs, but not spark-advance. If this is a candidate, someone with more experience with T'Max will need to comment further on it. It is expensive at $700-800 (IIRC).

SEPST: HD's "Pro Super Tuner" that is a flash-based tuner essentially similar to PV and TTS. It will require a dyno-tune unless you fit within a very narrow list of tunes available from HD.

There are others, but IMO these are the real tuners that will cover the performance needs of most and can respond to upgrades later-on down the road if needed. I would give Fuel Moto a call. They will not hard-sell you on anything, and may even lead you outside their product inventory if it is best for you. They sell a number of tuners and this is a good place to start for advice. Ask for Jamie.

 

My rule is "simple is good". So, I installed the FuelMoto version (no buttons to tempt me) of the PCIII USB with a prom that Jamie made up for me based on my mods; cams, SE a/c, and true duals.

Simple to install, works like a charm for me. YMMV

 

You have problems with any tuner when the map or tune is not optimal, which is more than likely not the fault of the product itself. It is an issue with the human tuner.

Actually, you can have both in one map or tune. Mileage is largely a function of the tune in the cruise range and performance is affected most by throttle-positions above that. The only downside to a "mileage tune" is that it may run a bit hotter, as ideally you would tune WOT for maximum performance. You aren't at WOT often, at least I'm not, and when you nail it you want maximum performance as a safety issue if nothing else.

Not to disparage the Dobeck, but IIRC it only adjusts fuel in a positive direction. At $245 you could spend $55 more and have a PCV that will tune AFRs ±100% and spark advance ±10%, as well as provide many more features.

I must respectfully disagree. The PCV is every bit a "true tuner" which can be used by a pro to dyno-tune the bike if needed and adjusts fuel and spark advance just as effectively as TTS, PV, or any other flash-based tuner will, but simply does it in a different way. It does not affect the tune at the ECM level like the others do but the method used is transparent and just as effective.

They are? Let's see, all flash-based tuners are "load-based" if it is indeed configured in the ECM as such. My '07 uses throttle-based VE tables, for example, although newer bikes have gone to KPA. I'd like to see evidence that a throttle-based tuner like the PCV will diminish the performance of any bike compared to a KPA-based strategy. Keep in mind the ECM will still work with the MAP and other sensors just as before. I am running PV (flash-based) and in terms of normal operation I sense no change in performance over the PCV and PCV-AT system I ran before this. It's all in the tune.

They are indeed great tools and I use one of them (PV), but this fact does not diminish the effectiveness of the PCV. I used a PCV for two years, the better part of that time with Auto-Tune, and it worked very well. I can tell no difference in normal operation between the tunes I achieved with one vs. the other. OTOH being able to alter idle speed, IAC steps, and a considerable number of other ECM parameters is truly useful for the advanced tuner. That said, most will not want or need that capability and don't fret over the details like you and I do .

Please define "better." They can possibly increase throttle-response a bit and cool the engine down a tad in closed-loop only, but will not affect WOT performance one iota.

Could you please explain this to us? TIA.

I've heard this quite a bit and have made some measurements comparing a richer vs. leaner cruise-range tuning. I run 14.6 in the cruise range and in our 95-100° summer weather my oil temps stay at around 205° with head temp around 225-235° when moving along at >45mph. This is not too hot. When I switch to richer map/tune, which I could do when I had a PCV that could toggle between maps on the fly, I saw only slight differences (7° max) in head temperature and no difference in oil temps that could be measured between 13.5 and 14.6. It would be proper to point out that I also have an oil-cooler installed, which does help.

I've seen "$1000" thrown about here more than once, but I know of no tuner that costs anywhere near this much in a real-world scenario. Why buy a $245 tuner than will only allow positive change in fuel delivery when you could buy a $300 tuner (PCV) that will go plus and minus for both fuel and spark-advance, is tunable on a dyno, and will provide many other useful features?

I doubt it. I would re-install the stock mufflers and see if the hesitation goes away, as I'm frankly perplexed about why this is happening after only a muffler swap, even with the stock tune. I would also call Fuel Moto for a consultation.

HD has a Stage 1 hardware package that includes the AC but not a tuner. The Stage 1 "download" is a purely computer-oriented "flash" of the ECM that makes some minor changes to the tune to ostensibly optimize the bike for the increased airflow achieved with an AC and aftermarket slip-ons. Most references to aftermarket Stage 1 kits include an AC, mufflers, and tuner--but AFAIK HD doesn't sell such a package. The only tuner they sell is SEST and SEPST.

 

OK, I'm confused...I reviewed the entire tread and simply don't see a single quote from me to you? Why are you quoting me as if I did?