No. I also have never worn a girdle, but I know how they work.

 

I can't speak for this poster but I took his comment as a stab at humor.

I too recommend Fuel Moto on occasion as I've had nothing but good experiences working with them.

Sure there is. The inconsistency is not apparent only if you refuse to see IED's as an alternative to conventional tuners. Because, with a stock or stage 1 bike, the "lowest cost possible" on a tuner is an IED. The fact that they tune passively and not actively doesn't mean they are not a "tuner". No one said they do everything an active tuner can do. The argument is how much does a stage one bike need from a tuner?

Further, I've read you many times explaining the virtues of your cams in the fact that they provide more power in what is essentially the closed loop mode within the power band and that we ride mainly within this portion of the power band. Cams that enhance performance further to the right in the power band are superfluous but a tuner that does the same is somehow not? Very inconsistant in my opinion.

I'm a "frugal" kind of guy also. My cam selection was also mainly (90%) based on economics and bang for the buck. In that regard we simply differ on where in the power band we want our cams to enhance. Fair enough. But IMO the bang for the buck of a tuner on a stage 1 bike is incredibly low. IED's perform much like a simple jet change on a carb. Isn't that really all you need for pipes and A/C?

You know how they work through second hand knowledge. My comments are made on first hand experience.

 

Its okay frog13, nobody is perfect. I forgive you and your sarcasm.

 

It's true that nobody asked, but there were comments made, quite unintentionally I'm sure, that I thought might confuse how IED's worked.

Nope. I'm a retired commercial photographer in LA. I've never even been to WI, nor have I met Jamie or any of his group. I have talked to Jamie and Keith, mostly the former, numerous times by phone and email over the past five years on technical topics. I like their products and service and am not shy about promoting them as good people to buy from. I'll continue to do so as long as they maintain this level of business integrity. End of story, so y'all just get over it.

 

Just like the moron neighbor who has no kids but wants to tell you how to raise them LoL.

 

Wow! I had no intention of my post blowing up to this. Sorry Iclick I've read many of your posts and learned from them. As far as Fuel Moto I've bought from them 3 times and will be buying the air cleaner from them tomorrow. They do have great customer service,thus why I like them. again thanks to everybody for the good info. The tuner did run my bike up through the gears under "wot" and said it was 13.8 the whole way which told me what I needed to know. He also said it was at 12.5 at wot which I needed to know. So I feel safe using the xied's with the full stage one. I had cams and gear drives and a dynoed pc3 on my 06 so I've been there too. I just want to leave this bike more stock and ride and ride. Thanks again! Hope to see some of you at Thunder Beach in three weeks. ......... Peace!

 

l found the biggest bang for the buck as far as air cleaners go, I like the Vance and Hines Naked V02 A/C that you can buy rather cheaply on eBay. Works great with my Vance and Hines Q-version pipes and X14iED's.

 

What did you use for a cover?iwant to use my stock cover.

 

The naked VO2 is designed to be used with the stock cover

 

It sounded like a serious accusation to me. Had he tacked a smiley onto the end of that paragraph I might have thought otherwise, but even then we don't need to be making baseless accusations like this, even in jest.

I honestly don't think they're right for a majority of riders, but I'm very open to a rational dialog about them. I may be shortchanging their worthiness as an alternative for more of us, so if I'm missing something about their operation I'd like to hear about it. My understanding has been that if you want to change mufflers only, or leave the bike stone stock, they do have a place as an alternative to tuners. But if you add a free-flowing AC I believe the airflow characteristics are changed enough to warrant purchasing a tunable tuner. IED's will alter the closed-loop area, but in open-loop you very likely will not have favorable AFR's in most or all of the sampled areas.

Good point. What is a tuner? I have always thought a tuner must be adjustable by the user or a tech, but by that definition a Rev. Perf. EMS would not qualify. It is a full-blown auto-tune system using wideband O2 sensors, but is not user configurable. You buy it and you run it, but you can't change anything about its operation. I wouldn't like the lack of adjustability, but saying it is not a tuner is really inaccurate to say the least. The same may go for IED's, so I'll retract my previous statements that they are not tuners and won't make that claim again. I also won't use "real tuners" in the same breath as "IED's" to describe more-expensive alternatives.

I've also said that they are worthless if you plan on doing future mods. This may also be inappropriate to say, as you can always dyno the bike and still run the IED's. So why not? It would be redundant and wouldn't be my solution, but it should be workable.

No, I never said that. I said that they worked best in the low-end and midrange--and by that I always meant RPM's, not throttle-position--but when you need performance you need it when you nail it! With IED's you receive no benefit at WOT, so these two topics aren't even relevant. Yes, cams help at part-throttle too, and the right cams do it in multiples of what IED's can provide.

I can tell you that I've experimented with 13.0, 13.5, 13.8, and 14.5:1 in the cruise range of my existing setup and I can perceive little difference in response between those AFR values during part-throttle roll-ons. The cams, OTOH, made a major difference using any of the above AFR settings. It's not even in the same league, at least on my bike and using my butt dyno (patent pending).

I made the AFR comparison by accident about a month ago. I mislabeled my rich tune set to 13.0 throughout the operating range as my standard economy tune set to 14.5 in the cruise range. Frankly, had I not been monitoring the MPG on the PV's display I wouldn't have noticed any difference at all. It was about 6mpg lower than I normally would realize, and ET (engine temperature measured by the ECM at the front head) was about the same as I've seen running 14.5:1. I find this odd considering everyone reports cooler running with AFR's lower than stock, but I don't see it on this bike. When I had the PCV-AT I could toggle between my economy map (14.6) and "cooling" map (13.5) in the cruise range and I saw 7° difference between the two cruising at 55mph in summer. At the time I was monitoring ET with the LCD-200 that works with the PCV. It may be that the lower AFR would work better in slow-moving traffic, however, but I've never compared them in that environment.

It's not the same thing at all, IMO. I've spoken of my desire to decrease the time it takes me to "pass a truck" without downshifting, my favorite descriptive gauge for performance in a touring bike. You don't typically do that while running in closed-loop, and in reality I think part-throttle performance is really irrelevant as a performance gauge. If you need more power, you just twist the throttle a bit more, and WOT is the real performance measurement, as when you've gone that far you can't go further. What difference does it make if you use 30% throttle with IED's or 35% without them to achieve a given level of acceleration as long as you accomplish it? Is it the response? If so, why would your wrist not be faster? I just don't see part-throttle response as an important selling-point for any tuner.

Very fair. If the cams I use were right for everyone they wouldn't make several hundred different grinds. I never said the 255 cams were right for everyone, and have even said the opposite at every opportunity.

Well, the FM Stage 1 upgrades (mufflers, AC, and tuner), all added at once, made a nice performance bump for my '07. Of course the mufflers and AC by themselves makes for a nice bump, so I suppose I really don't know how much of that came from the tuner. Based on the map included with the PCIII (first tuner) there was quite a bit of adjustment made throughout the map, but I've seen other maps (e.g. a friend's '06 RG) that showed quite a bit less. For those the tuner would likely be less of a factor, but I think it varies with the year and model. In fact, I sold my PCIII to that guy and he returned it, saying it didn't seem to help very much. So, that gives evidence to the point you're making--but I think the effect you get from an adjustable tuner like a PC in a Stage 1 bike varies with the year and model.

That's very true, but I can simulate their operation by changing the AFR in the cruise range, a very simple operation with most configurable tuners. I've done that and don't feel much difference on this bike, as I mentioned earlier. Yours and others may be quite different.