abs pros/cons
Cruiser
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 120
Likes: 0
I can. You are more than welcome to come watch. I ll let you know our training dates and times and location. feel free to pm for additional.
Tourer
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 410
Likes: 3
From: Central North Carolina
The problem with these "I can stop quicker without than you can with" is that, if you actually do some tests, they invariably will be done under controlled conditions where you know you're going to apply the brakes and are able to have the presence of mind to do everything right.
In the real world, "opportunities" to do an emergency stop rarely happen under controlled conditions and you almost never have an opportunity to plan your stop in advance. Things happen in the blink of an eye. In those situations I want ABS....
In the real world, "opportunities" to do an emergency stop rarely happen under controlled conditions and you almost never have an opportunity to plan your stop in advance. Things happen in the blink of an eye. In those situations I want ABS....
Cruiser
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 120
Likes: 0
You are right! Study after study have shown that a highly skilled rider can stop much faster on a non-ABS bike on dry pavement. They also show that the skilled rider can stop much faster on dry pavement than a novice rider with an ABS bike too. However when you add oil, water. gravel, etc to the conditions, that gap between the expert rider and the novice rider diminishes very, very quickly to the point a novice with ABS brakes can stop almost as fast as an expert without ABS on very poor conditions.
You may be as skilled a rider as you allude to be, and I hope for your sake that you are that good. A less skilled or novice rider's life may be saved by ABS because they do improve the braking distance required when you do not have expert braking skills especially on less than optimum road conditions.
I'm just curious here, do you disable the ABS system in your cars after you buy them?
You may be as skilled a rider as you allude to be, and I hope for your sake that you are that good. A less skilled or novice rider's life may be saved by ABS because they do improve the braking distance required when you do not have expert braking skills especially on less than optimum road conditions.
I'm just curious here, do you disable the ABS system in your cars after you buy them?
Cruiser
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 120
Likes: 0
The problem with these "I can stop quicker without than you can with" is that, if you actually do some tests, they invariably will be done under controlled conditions where you know you're going to apply the brakes and are able to have the presence of mind to do everything right.
In the real world, "opportunities" to do an emergency stop rarely happen under controlled conditions and you almost never have an opportunity to plan your stop in advance. Things happen in the blink of an eye. In those situations I want ABS....
In the real world, "opportunities" to do an emergency stop rarely happen under controlled conditions and you almost never have an opportunity to plan your stop in advance. Things happen in the blink of an eye. In those situations I want ABS....
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 20,880
Likes: 33,816
You actually can if you practice. That is the point I'm trying to make. The majority of accident cases i investigate, is that the rider relied on the ABS and only used his rear brake. take your bike into a parking lot. have someone blow a whistle or what ever to signal you to a sudden stop. use only your rear brake and you will see what I mean. then do the same exercise and apply both brakes properly, you will see the difference without going into abs.
Having said that when I get caught in the rain I am damn sure glad I have ABS brakes if I have to make an emergency stop. All I have to think about is grab both brakes and keep the bike up right.
You have to remember most of us can not think as fast as you nor are we as coordinated as you. Come to think of it you are probably best the motorcyle rider I have ever read about on this forum. I am impressed with your skills.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 20,616
Likes: 4,440
From: anacoco, la
hows that for advanced
You actually can if you practice. That is the point I'm trying to make. The majority of accident cases i investigate, is that the rider relied on the ABS and only used his rear brake. take your bike into a parking lot. have someone blow a whistle or what ever to signal you to a sudden stop. use only your rear brake and you will see what I mean. then do the same exercise and apply both brakes properly, you will see the difference without going into abs.
Last edited by skratch; Apr 26, 2012 at 09:16 PM.
Tourer
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 306
Likes: 2
I posted this some time ago, I'm re-posting as I think it's relevant here:
I've had a lot of experience with the HD ABS since it was introduced on the police motors in '05. Of course from '05 to "07 was the initial system, while the '08 and newer is the current system mated to the Brembo brakes.
The first thing to understand is how ABS works. Its sensors determine, through measurement of wheel speed when a lock-up is incipient. The system then begins modulating the brakes (releasing and re-applying them) at something like 6 or 7 times a second. This keeps something near the maximum braking, while allowing the wheels to keep rolling. There are two reasons a rolling tire is good. The first is the only one that matters for us on a motor - only a rolling tire can keep the motor upright. The second is that a skidding tire takes longer to stop. In a car both reasons are important, since ABS allows both a shorter stop than a skid, and allows the car to be steered.
Now a couple of more foundation points:
From the above you should realize ABS will not make you stop faster. In fact a perfect rider, under perfect conditions, can stop shorter without ABS, than with ABS. This is because ABS works by backing away slightly from maximum braking. The primary braking exercise in motor school is the Brake and Escape, that involves slowing from 40 MPH in less than 62 feet to a speed that allows maneuvering around a tight obstacle. When I started, ABS wasn't around yet. In every class we'd usually get one significant crash due to a locked front wheel the student did not handle properly (release immediately and properly re-apply). On top of that everyone was leaving a little of their braking power on the table, for fear of a lock-up. The point is these were very well trained riders, with perfect road conditions, reacting to a known hazard. Even then there were problems.
For training purposes, student officers are taught to brake without activating the ABS. If they do, it's not a successful run. Even an ABS equipped motor will stop shorter if the ABS is not activated.
In the Brake and Escape, if ABS is deliberately activated (through improper application of the brakes) and held throughout the exercise, it becomes very difficult to get the necessary slowing in the distance allowed.
So, what all the above is designed to point out is that ABS isn't the absolute fastest way to stop a motorcycle (or any vehicle). I suppose this is the point the guys who claim they don't want ABS are trying to make.
HOWEVER,
First, it's extremely unlikely that when you need maximum braking you will have perfect road conditions. Anything that changes the friction on your braking path it likely to cause a wheel lock. A pothole, a manhole, a painted line, sand, oil, or anything that is more slippery than the road surface will obviously cause an impending skid to become a locked-wheel skid.
Second, even if the road surface is perfect, are you willing to bet your life (or at least bet injury and property damage) that your braking skills are perfect? If your braking at the threshold, the only reason would be an emergency has arisen that you failed to foresee. I've practiced threshold braking probably in excess of 1000 repetitions, and yet have used the skill only once or twice on the road. Those times on the road I was fortunate enough to not lock a wheel. Practice and skill development is a big part of the reason why; good luck is another big part.
Finally, having ABS gives you the confidence to brake to the maximum. As I mentioned above, in the pre-ABS days, running the brake and escape exercise, I know I was always leaving a little of the motor's braking power on the table, for fear of locking a wheel. I was still successful, but not as confident as I could be. In my case this would manifest itself in uneven speed at the entry of the exercise. We're checked with radar, and 40 MPH is the correct speed to enter. A minimum of 38 MPH is required for a passing run. In the days before ABS my speeds would range from 38 up to about 43 MPH. Once I was able to take away the concern of locking a wheel, I was able to concentrate on dialing it in. My first exam on an ABS motor all four of my test runs were dead-on 40 MPH. My point is not simply to brag. Rather it's to illustrate that when you're braking to the threshold you have plenty to worry about. ABS allows you to concentrate on the important issues (evaluating the hazard, planning an escape route, downshifting to be in the proper gear should the hazard clear, etc) rather than simply concerning yourself with the mechanics of getting the maximum you can out of your brakes.
The technique of braking is exactly the same whether your motorcycle has ABS or not. The difference comes when the technique has failed. On a non-ABS motor it requires an immediate release and proper re-application, to handle a front wheel lock-up. That takes time, and time equals distance. It also takes a cool reaction to a hot situation. On an ABS motor, if the ABS activates, it IS an indication you've made a braking error. However, your response is simply keep pulling the lever, or pressing the pedal. As noted above, it will lengthen your braking distance, but by very little, and by far less than the method needed on a non-ABS motor. This means you can sit down later and consider how your braking error occurred, rather than letting the accident reconstructionist do it for you. (By the way if you have ABS, and you've felt it activate on the street, you should figure out what you're doing wrong in your braking, because you are doing something that can be improved).
So, the goal if you have ABS is to never know it's there. Just like all your other forms of insurance, and your other safety equipment. Unlike a helmet, a seat belt, an air bag, or car insurance, the beauty of ABS is it can jump in to prevent an accident, not just lessen the severity, or try to fix things later.
When you get the ABS motor, take it out to a parking lot and do some braking with it. Deliberately over-brake with the front and the rear, to activate the system in each. This way you'll know what it feels like, both in the lever/pedal, and how it makes the motorcycle behave (you'll feel the "brake-release-brake-release" as it modulates). The DVD that Harley provides with the ABS motors is well worth watching. It explains ABS, and it explains how the H-D system works and what you'll see and feel.
Finally, here are two videos:
Me on an ABS equipped motor (40 MPH entry speed):
And my friend David on a non-ABS motor (also 40 MPH entry):
It's the exact same exercise, run at the same speed. Hopefully you notice that the confidence imparted by the ABS allows me to run it a little more smoothly. However, the ABS system was not activated, and the motorcycle stops just as quickly as the non-ABS motor (in fact a little more quickly since the Brembos are a superior brake to the prior iteration).
Harris
Denver, CO
www.youtube.com/conedown
I've had a lot of experience with the HD ABS since it was introduced on the police motors in '05. Of course from '05 to "07 was the initial system, while the '08 and newer is the current system mated to the Brembo brakes.
The first thing to understand is how ABS works. Its sensors determine, through measurement of wheel speed when a lock-up is incipient. The system then begins modulating the brakes (releasing and re-applying them) at something like 6 or 7 times a second. This keeps something near the maximum braking, while allowing the wheels to keep rolling. There are two reasons a rolling tire is good. The first is the only one that matters for us on a motor - only a rolling tire can keep the motor upright. The second is that a skidding tire takes longer to stop. In a car both reasons are important, since ABS allows both a shorter stop than a skid, and allows the car to be steered.
Now a couple of more foundation points:
From the above you should realize ABS will not make you stop faster. In fact a perfect rider, under perfect conditions, can stop shorter without ABS, than with ABS. This is because ABS works by backing away slightly from maximum braking. The primary braking exercise in motor school is the Brake and Escape, that involves slowing from 40 MPH in less than 62 feet to a speed that allows maneuvering around a tight obstacle. When I started, ABS wasn't around yet. In every class we'd usually get one significant crash due to a locked front wheel the student did not handle properly (release immediately and properly re-apply). On top of that everyone was leaving a little of their braking power on the table, for fear of a lock-up. The point is these were very well trained riders, with perfect road conditions, reacting to a known hazard. Even then there were problems.
For training purposes, student officers are taught to brake without activating the ABS. If they do, it's not a successful run. Even an ABS equipped motor will stop shorter if the ABS is not activated.
In the Brake and Escape, if ABS is deliberately activated (through improper application of the brakes) and held throughout the exercise, it becomes very difficult to get the necessary slowing in the distance allowed.
So, what all the above is designed to point out is that ABS isn't the absolute fastest way to stop a motorcycle (or any vehicle). I suppose this is the point the guys who claim they don't want ABS are trying to make.
HOWEVER,
First, it's extremely unlikely that when you need maximum braking you will have perfect road conditions. Anything that changes the friction on your braking path it likely to cause a wheel lock. A pothole, a manhole, a painted line, sand, oil, or anything that is more slippery than the road surface will obviously cause an impending skid to become a locked-wheel skid.
Second, even if the road surface is perfect, are you willing to bet your life (or at least bet injury and property damage) that your braking skills are perfect? If your braking at the threshold, the only reason would be an emergency has arisen that you failed to foresee. I've practiced threshold braking probably in excess of 1000 repetitions, and yet have used the skill only once or twice on the road. Those times on the road I was fortunate enough to not lock a wheel. Practice and skill development is a big part of the reason why; good luck is another big part.
Finally, having ABS gives you the confidence to brake to the maximum. As I mentioned above, in the pre-ABS days, running the brake and escape exercise, I know I was always leaving a little of the motor's braking power on the table, for fear of locking a wheel. I was still successful, but not as confident as I could be. In my case this would manifest itself in uneven speed at the entry of the exercise. We're checked with radar, and 40 MPH is the correct speed to enter. A minimum of 38 MPH is required for a passing run. In the days before ABS my speeds would range from 38 up to about 43 MPH. Once I was able to take away the concern of locking a wheel, I was able to concentrate on dialing it in. My first exam on an ABS motor all four of my test runs were dead-on 40 MPH. My point is not simply to brag. Rather it's to illustrate that when you're braking to the threshold you have plenty to worry about. ABS allows you to concentrate on the important issues (evaluating the hazard, planning an escape route, downshifting to be in the proper gear should the hazard clear, etc) rather than simply concerning yourself with the mechanics of getting the maximum you can out of your brakes.
The technique of braking is exactly the same whether your motorcycle has ABS or not. The difference comes when the technique has failed. On a non-ABS motor it requires an immediate release and proper re-application, to handle a front wheel lock-up. That takes time, and time equals distance. It also takes a cool reaction to a hot situation. On an ABS motor, if the ABS activates, it IS an indication you've made a braking error. However, your response is simply keep pulling the lever, or pressing the pedal. As noted above, it will lengthen your braking distance, but by very little, and by far less than the method needed on a non-ABS motor. This means you can sit down later and consider how your braking error occurred, rather than letting the accident reconstructionist do it for you. (By the way if you have ABS, and you've felt it activate on the street, you should figure out what you're doing wrong in your braking, because you are doing something that can be improved).
So, the goal if you have ABS is to never know it's there. Just like all your other forms of insurance, and your other safety equipment. Unlike a helmet, a seat belt, an air bag, or car insurance, the beauty of ABS is it can jump in to prevent an accident, not just lessen the severity, or try to fix things later.
When you get the ABS motor, take it out to a parking lot and do some braking with it. Deliberately over-brake with the front and the rear, to activate the system in each. This way you'll know what it feels like, both in the lever/pedal, and how it makes the motorcycle behave (you'll feel the "brake-release-brake-release" as it modulates). The DVD that Harley provides with the ABS motors is well worth watching. It explains ABS, and it explains how the H-D system works and what you'll see and feel.
Finally, here are two videos:
Me on an ABS equipped motor (40 MPH entry speed):
And my friend David on a non-ABS motor (also 40 MPH entry):
It's the exact same exercise, run at the same speed. Hopefully you notice that the confidence imparted by the ABS allows me to run it a little more smoothly. However, the ABS system was not activated, and the motorcycle stops just as quickly as the non-ABS motor (in fact a little more quickly since the Brembos are a superior brake to the prior iteration).
Harris
Denver, CO
www.youtube.com/conedown
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Cruiser
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 120
Likes: 0
I'm 61 years old. It will be a cold day in hell when I take out a $25,000 motorcycle with or without ABS and practice emergency stops on wet pavement.
Having said that when I get caught in the rain I am damn sure glad I have ABS brakes if I have to make an emergency stop. All I have to think about is grab both brakes and keep the bike up right.
You have to remember most of us can not think as fast as you nor are we as coordinated as you. Come to think of it you are probably best the motorcyle rider I have ever read about on this forum. I am impressed with your skills.
Having said that when I get caught in the rain I am damn sure glad I have ABS brakes if I have to make an emergency stop. All I have to think about is grab both brakes and keep the bike up right.
You have to remember most of us can not think as fast as you nor are we as coordinated as you. Come to think of it you are probably best the motorcyle rider I have ever read about on this forum. I am impressed with your skills.
