True Duals vs duals with crossover
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Road Master
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,121
Likes: 13
From: NWFL
True Duals vs duals with crossover
I'm interested in changing my exhaust but it's difficult to find info on the performance of systems that are really true duals and duals that have crossovers. Based upon some initial research, many claim that the crossover produces better performance.
What data (torque, hp, mileage, etc) does the group have on various systems? I am thinking of SE mufflers and a/c to go with the new exhaust, so anyone with this configuration can help create a good database for everyone interested in this topic! I am planning to go with the PC V for fuel management.
Thanks much!
What data (torque, hp, mileage, etc) does the group have on various systems? I am thinking of SE mufflers and a/c to go with the new exhaust, so anyone with this configuration can help create a good database for everyone interested in this topic! I am planning to go with the PC V for fuel management.
Thanks much!
Extreme HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 14,744
Likes: 402
From: Phoenix '53, '88, '09 Big Twins
this gets asked alot, here is a primer on exhaust system theory- skip down to pulse
http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/Miscella...austtheory.htm
in short connected exhaust tracts will increase cylinder fill and power esp at the low end- but may post slight losses of peak power.
the follow on question is ;
do you ride at 3000 rpms or 6000 rpms.
the stock style HD headers from 1984.5 to 2009 were generally regarded as good for up to 100 HP, with high flow mufflers and the CV carb and a high flow air cleaner...100 hp is generally more than a mildly built motor would produce.
come 2010 and the catted headers ( earlier in some markets) and the stock header is often replaced or the cat removed, to restore the flow ability of the early header design(s).
so you have a couple of options to consider re the cat.
some riders are perfectly happy with the stock 2010+ style mufflers on a de-catted header as the late mufflers are less restrictive.
almost every air cleaner out there will flow more than the motor could demand- one exception is the hype charger
I like the ness big sucker, it is the value leader comes with chrome backing plate which complements the motor, oiled washable filter and uses the stock cover which hides the servo plug and ugly wiring. ( easternpc for $120 on ebay)
there are different tuning solutions, some use fuelmoto. there are others, I use nightrider.com xieds ( $100).
from simple stage 1 I'd expect somewheres around 74 HP
so my bike, 2009, 96" stock no cat headers, supertrapp tuned mufflers, ness big sucker, xieds results in good moderate power, 43 MPG at 110~120 KPM ( so that's be about 16 km per liter?- the US gallon is 3.78 L ) and good reliability. All the mods were removable in case of a warranty related dealer visit...back when I had a warranty
mike
http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/Miscella...austtheory.htm
in short connected exhaust tracts will increase cylinder fill and power esp at the low end- but may post slight losses of peak power.
the follow on question is ;
do you ride at 3000 rpms or 6000 rpms.
the stock style HD headers from 1984.5 to 2009 were generally regarded as good for up to 100 HP, with high flow mufflers and the CV carb and a high flow air cleaner...100 hp is generally more than a mildly built motor would produce.
come 2010 and the catted headers ( earlier in some markets) and the stock header is often replaced or the cat removed, to restore the flow ability of the early header design(s).
so you have a couple of options to consider re the cat.
some riders are perfectly happy with the stock 2010+ style mufflers on a de-catted header as the late mufflers are less restrictive.
almost every air cleaner out there will flow more than the motor could demand- one exception is the hype charger
I like the ness big sucker, it is the value leader comes with chrome backing plate which complements the motor, oiled washable filter and uses the stock cover which hides the servo plug and ugly wiring. ( easternpc for $120 on ebay)
there are different tuning solutions, some use fuelmoto. there are others, I use nightrider.com xieds ( $100).
from simple stage 1 I'd expect somewheres around 74 HP
so my bike, 2009, 96" stock no cat headers, supertrapp tuned mufflers, ness big sucker, xieds results in good moderate power, 43 MPG at 110~120 KPM ( so that's be about 16 km per liter?- the US gallon is 3.78 L ) and good reliability. All the mods were removable in case of a warranty related dealer visit...back when I had a warranty
mike
Last edited by mkguitar; Sep 17, 2012 at 05:12 PM.
Thread Starter
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Road Master
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,121
Likes: 13
From: NWFL
I'll read the primer, thanks! I've read several others, but not this one. I usually cruise around 2500 to 3250. I have a new RG 103 and I'm really pleased with the great torque that's spread across the range from 2.5 to 4 thousand rpms. I'd like to get away from the catalytic convertor system.
Road Master
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 900
Likes: 1
From: Cincinnati, Ohio
If I remember correctly, the power dual is a 2-1-2 system instead of a straight 2 into 2. I am not an engineer, but he said this is their best system for a relatively stock bike. You may want to call their customer service number. I have always found them to be very helpful. I am going to use the stock slip ons for now. I did not ask about the remap, but V&H will probably tell you that their FuelPak is required. I am going with the HD Pro Tuner on my bike. It is being installed today or tomorrow. They gave my a great deal on this set-up with the purchase of my bike.
Last edited by navyman; Sep 18, 2012 at 08:45 AM. Reason: Added info.
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Road Captain
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 560
Likes: 2
From: Green Bay, WI
I have the 2-1-2 on my '11 103 SG. I had a phone conversation with V&H about this pipe.
The rep I spoke with said to think of this pipe as a 2-1 header. You will notice the left pipe at warm up/idle seems to have more visible fumes exiting. This is because the rear right side pipe is where the majority of the exhaust will flow. The rear left side has less of a flow, resulting in lower temps in that side, which causes an incomplete burn of exhaust gases. Hence the visible exhaust at warm up and idle. It is normal.
I run a S&S 551 cam and the results are pure heaven for low-mid range torque.
The rep I spoke with said to think of this pipe as a 2-1 header. You will notice the left pipe at warm up/idle seems to have more visible fumes exiting. This is because the rear right side pipe is where the majority of the exhaust will flow. The rear left side has less of a flow, resulting in lower temps in that side, which causes an incomplete burn of exhaust gases. Hence the visible exhaust at warm up and idle. It is normal.
I run a S&S 551 cam and the results are pure heaven for low-mid range torque.
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Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,328
Likes: 15
From: Pacific Northwest
Sorry, difference of opinion here and a wish to dispel any confusion.
I am not aware of anyone that has made anywhere close to 100 hp. using stock 1984-2009 headers. They are generally regarded as 'junk' by anyone wanting more power from their Touring bike. The aftermarket thanks H-D for that design every time they sell a replacement system.
OP: the info offered as a 'primer' is pretty good. Another good site with plenty of tuning info is nightrider.
Take care not to over-think your exhaust decision. On a basically stock motor at higher rpm the two are at least equal while the difference at off-idle rpm slightly favors a 2-1-2. If you like the look of true duals your performance (and fun factor) will not suffer from using them.
I am not aware of anyone that has made anywhere close to 100 hp. using stock 1984-2009 headers. They are generally regarded as 'junk' by anyone wanting more power from their Touring bike. The aftermarket thanks H-D for that design every time they sell a replacement system.
OP: the info offered as a 'primer' is pretty good. Another good site with plenty of tuning info is nightrider.
Take care not to over-think your exhaust decision. On a basically stock motor at higher rpm the two are at least equal while the difference at off-idle rpm slightly favors a 2-1-2. If you like the look of true duals your performance (and fun factor) will not suffer from using them.
I have the 2-1-2 on my '11 103 SG. I had a phone conversation with V&H about this pipe.
The rep I spoke with said to think of this pipe as a 2-1 header. You will notice the left pipe at warm up/idle seems to have more visible fumes exiting. This is because the rear right side pipe is where the majority of the exhaust will flow. The rear left side has less of a flow, resulting in lower temps in that side, which causes an incomplete burn of exhaust gases. Hence the visible exhaust at warm up and idle. It is normal.
I run a S&S 551 cam and the results are pure heaven for low-mid range torque.
The rep I spoke with said to think of this pipe as a 2-1 header. You will notice the left pipe at warm up/idle seems to have more visible fumes exiting. This is because the rear right side pipe is where the majority of the exhaust will flow. The rear left side has less of a flow, resulting in lower temps in that side, which causes an incomplete burn of exhaust gases. Hence the visible exhaust at warm up and idle. It is normal.
I run a S&S 551 cam and the results are pure heaven for low-mid range torque.