Tuning The 120R
Thread Starter
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Road Warrior
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,258
Likes: 114
From: Jackson, Ohio
A little feedback after yesterday's ride and a couple questions:
Before I started my 120, the dealer's dyno guy warned me to add 10 full points to Harley's base map VE tables. I did that plus I smoothed the tables by watching the graph and it was still way too lean especially at the 3000 rpm area and at 4500 rpms.
I threw the base map VE tables out the window and went with tables that have my butt dyno happy with no flat spots in the power delivery up to 5000 rpms. The engine only has 200 miles on it so I'm still taking it easy.
Do any of you here that had your 120 bike dyno'd know how to load maps and tune your own bike? And, did the dyno tuner give you the finished map?
I do not want your map (you paid for it) but would like to offer mine for a comparison. I have the SEPST tuner and am using the 09SAZ003 base map but I have the injectors changed from 4.35 to 5.32 and the compression releases turned on. My engine size is at 120" on the constants. My idle is set to 1000 rpms and I smoothed a few of the spark tables a little to get rid of the flat spots around the 3000 and 4500 rpm areas. I'm still using my gutted stock header with Fullsak 2.25 inserts in my CVO slip-ons so any true dual or 2 into 1 into 2 exhaust should be safe to try.
When I have had my previously self-tuned bikes dyno'd, they were always on the slightly rich side so there should be no worry of my tune leaning your bike out if you do try it. I would prefer you compare my VE tables on the screen next to your VE tables though before you download just to be on the safe side.
Compared to what Harley offers as a base map, I feel the one I have worked on and am currently using is way safer and performs 100% better. It may not net the same fuel mileage but I never bought the 120 with fuel consumption as a priority.
I can send the map via email if anyone is interested.
Before I started my 120, the dealer's dyno guy warned me to add 10 full points to Harley's base map VE tables. I did that plus I smoothed the tables by watching the graph and it was still way too lean especially at the 3000 rpm area and at 4500 rpms.
I threw the base map VE tables out the window and went with tables that have my butt dyno happy with no flat spots in the power delivery up to 5000 rpms. The engine only has 200 miles on it so I'm still taking it easy.
Do any of you here that had your 120 bike dyno'd know how to load maps and tune your own bike? And, did the dyno tuner give you the finished map?
I do not want your map (you paid for it) but would like to offer mine for a comparison. I have the SEPST tuner and am using the 09SAZ003 base map but I have the injectors changed from 4.35 to 5.32 and the compression releases turned on. My engine size is at 120" on the constants. My idle is set to 1000 rpms and I smoothed a few of the spark tables a little to get rid of the flat spots around the 3000 and 4500 rpm areas. I'm still using my gutted stock header with Fullsak 2.25 inserts in my CVO slip-ons so any true dual or 2 into 1 into 2 exhaust should be safe to try.
When I have had my previously self-tuned bikes dyno'd, they were always on the slightly rich side so there should be no worry of my tune leaning your bike out if you do try it. I would prefer you compare my VE tables on the screen next to your VE tables though before you download just to be on the safe side.
Compared to what Harley offers as a base map, I feel the one I have worked on and am currently using is way safer and performs 100% better. It may not net the same fuel mileage but I never bought the 120 with fuel consumption as a priority.
I can send the map via email if anyone is interested.
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 2,543
Likes: 19
From: Ashland Ohio
I had to play with IAC crank steps, IAC crank to run, and IAC warm up steps to make my 120 idle and cold start properly. Also, I adjusted the closed spark to match the first two columns of spark up to 1500 rpm. If these all match, you won't get surging at start up. I found 21* worked very well. I have a 2010 Ultra. I always self tune with TTS and a Twin Scan with wide bands. I don't use a SEPST, so any info I have will be useless to you. I'm in Columbus, so maybe you could use the Twin Scan, but it doesn't look like that pipe set up works for 18mm bungs up top... whats needed for a Twin Scan. Trying to Smart tune with that pipe you have would be next to worthless. I have Herko Blocks to tune with, using the Twin Scan, but I, as of yet, have made a mobile 12vdc vac pump that rides on the bike, to go along with them. This winter, I will Fab that up. Next spring, we could then try it all out and see what AFRs you REALLY have.
I would NOT run any clutch except for a Pro Clutch with Gold Spring, or a Bandit Sporstman. I'm using the Pro Clutch right now without the VPC and it hooks nice, no slip and slightly higher pull, but the pull goes 'over center' on a Pro Clutch, so sitting at a light isn't a problem at all.
I would NOT run any clutch except for a Pro Clutch with Gold Spring, or a Bandit Sporstman. I'm using the Pro Clutch right now without the VPC and it hooks nice, no slip and slightly higher pull, but the pull goes 'over center' on a Pro Clutch, so sitting at a light isn't a problem at all.
Last edited by wurk_truk; Oct 14, 2012 at 06:30 PM.
Thread Starter
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Road Warrior
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,258
Likes: 114
From: Jackson, Ohio
WT,
I have copied and pasted between TTS and SEPST maps for several years. Some of the values are a little different but I was always able to make one work with the other.
Sounds like a neat set-up with your twin scan and vacuum pump.
The stock pipe is temporary.
I really want a RB racing Black hole pipe but they take forever.....so, the stocker will have to do for the rest of the year.
The cold start was a little erratic but it cleared when I got the VE tables in the ballpark. It cold starts instantly and idles down with no hiccups or surging whatsoever.
I work in Columbus so I'm there every day.
btw, I went to school with a guy named Richard Head.
I have copied and pasted between TTS and SEPST maps for several years. Some of the values are a little different but I was always able to make one work with the other.
Sounds like a neat set-up with your twin scan and vacuum pump.
The stock pipe is temporary.
I really want a RB racing Black hole pipe but they take forever.....so, the stocker will have to do for the rest of the year.
The cold start was a little erratic but it cleared when I got the VE tables in the ballpark. It cold starts instantly and idles down with no hiccups or surging whatsoever.
I work in Columbus so I'm there every day.
btw, I went to school with a guy named Richard Head.
I don't think I'll be using Roeder's for any of my tuning needs; Chad sent me out of there $650 lighter in the billfold and with a dangerously lean spark knocking mess on my 113" bike. Once bit, twice shy....
My 120 runs perfectly fine with my tuning in it and I'll bet there is not an additional 3% to be gained if I were to trust someone to tune it.
My goal is to buy my own dyno in the near future so I can spend the time necessary to produce maximum results.
Unfortunately most tuners are worrying about the boss looking over their shoulder bitch'n about how much time they're wasting which is the case at the one shop where the guy actually can hear and feel what's going on plus understand what the graph is showing him.
My 120 runs perfectly fine with my tuning in it and I'll bet there is not an additional 3% to be gained if I were to trust someone to tune it.
My goal is to buy my own dyno in the near future so I can spend the time necessary to produce maximum results.
Unfortunately most tuners are worrying about the boss looking over their shoulder bitch'n about how much time they're wasting which is the case at the one shop where the guy actually can hear and feel what's going on plus understand what the graph is showing him.
1: Yes you spent $650 at our shop. $300 for the tune and we sold you a TTS Matertune at a discounted price of $350 because your SERT was freezing up and not allowing me to finish the tune. You sat in the dyno with me while I tuned your bike, you saw the issues I was having with the SERT that you already had.
2: At the completion of your tune you rode your bike for awhile and came back and you were completely happy with it. It was a few day later that you PM'd me about spark knock. Coincedently between the time you left our shop and you had spark knock issues you made numerous posts on here about how you were adjusting your timing tables.
Thread Starter
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Road Warrior
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,258
Likes: 114
From: Jackson, Ohio
If you remember correctly, the wind was blowing about 40 mph and I rode it down the street and back, probably less than a mile total.
I didn't see you do it and I would hope not but it felt as if you let me ride it with the spark knock disabled then you enabled it before I left there; it ran way different after I got it home compared to the short trip I took while I was there. The very next Saturday after I left your place, I took it to the indy that originally dyno'd the bike since I was concerned about the way it was falling on its face. He made one pass on his dyno and unstrapped it saying to take it back. That's when I decided to adjust the bike back to my previous self-tuned slightly rich map.
The TTS purchase wasn't a concern or the dollars spent but the base map you selected was not for the cams that were in my bike. I specifically told you I had 260 cams. The base map you selected was for 264 cams, hence the necessity to change timing tables.
I know you were new there at the time and the boss was looking over your shoulder so to speak and he was bitch'n because you let me in the dyno room but it doesn't change the fact that I left there with a dangerously lean bike with the wrong base map.
I should have taken it back to you but having another 68 miles of dyno time placed on my bike didn't seem attractive to me at the time.
I didn't see you do it and I would hope not but it felt as if you let me ride it with the spark knock disabled then you enabled it before I left there; it ran way different after I got it home compared to the short trip I took while I was there. The very next Saturday after I left your place, I took it to the indy that originally dyno'd the bike since I was concerned about the way it was falling on its face. He made one pass on his dyno and unstrapped it saying to take it back. That's when I decided to adjust the bike back to my previous self-tuned slightly rich map.
The TTS purchase wasn't a concern or the dollars spent but the base map you selected was not for the cams that were in my bike. I specifically told you I had 260 cams. The base map you selected was for 264 cams, hence the necessity to change timing tables.
I know you were new there at the time and the boss was looking over your shoulder so to speak and he was bitch'n because you let me in the dyno room but it doesn't change the fact that I left there with a dangerously lean bike with the wrong base map.
I should have taken it back to you but having another 68 miles of dyno time placed on my bike didn't seem attractive to me at the time.
If you remember correctly, the wind was blowing about 40 mph and I rode it down the street and back, probably less than a mile total.
I didn't see you do it and I would hope not but it felt as if you let me ride it with the spark knock disabled then you enabled it before I left there; it ran way different after I got it home compared to the short trip I took while I was there. The very next Saturday after I left your place, I took it to the indy that originally dyno'd the bike since I was concerned about the way it was falling on its face. He made one pass on his dyno and unstrapped it saying to take it back. That's when I decided to adjust the bike back to my previous self-tuned slightly rich map.
The TTS purchase wasn't a concern or the dollars spent but the base map you selected was not for the cams that were in my bike. I specifically told you I had 260 cams. The base map you selected was for 264 cams, hence the necessity to change timing tables.
I know you were new there at the time and the boss was looking over your shoulder so to speak and he was bitch'n because you let me in the dyno room but it doesn't change the fact that I left there with a dangerously lean bike with the wrong base map.
I should have taken it back to you but having another 68 miles of dyno time placed on my bike didn't seem attractive to me at the time.
I didn't see you do it and I would hope not but it felt as if you let me ride it with the spark knock disabled then you enabled it before I left there; it ran way different after I got it home compared to the short trip I took while I was there. The very next Saturday after I left your place, I took it to the indy that originally dyno'd the bike since I was concerned about the way it was falling on its face. He made one pass on his dyno and unstrapped it saying to take it back. That's when I decided to adjust the bike back to my previous self-tuned slightly rich map.
The TTS purchase wasn't a concern or the dollars spent but the base map you selected was not for the cams that were in my bike. I specifically told you I had 260 cams. The base map you selected was for 264 cams, hence the necessity to change timing tables.
I know you were new there at the time and the boss was looking over your shoulder so to speak and he was bitch'n because you let me in the dyno room but it doesn't change the fact that I left there with a dangerously lean bike with the wrong base map.
I should have taken it back to you but having another 68 miles of dyno time placed on my bike didn't seem attractive to me at the time.
Thread Starter
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Road Warrior
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,258
Likes: 114
From: Jackson, Ohio
You do not know what you're missing..........
If you're using an unmodified 009SAZ003 map, it's way lean.
If you're using an unmodified 009SAZ003 map, it's way lean.
Last edited by scj; Oct 19, 2012 at 03:08 AM.
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Thread Starter
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Road Warrior
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,258
Likes: 114
From: Jackson, Ohio
Like I said, i'm not going to get into a pissing match. Apparently we remember the "chain of events" differently. After you rode your bike you put it in the back of your tuck so there is noway I could have turned the knock control back on. Within a day or 2 after leaving our shop you made posts about how you were changing your tables, you even changed your signiture from thuned at Roeder Racing to "tuned by myself", this was before you apparantly took it to a dyno guy and he said whatever it was he said. It was well over a week later that you PM'd me that you weren't happy and this was after many changes you made yourself. Either way, sorry about and bad experience you had at our shop, it's very fortunate for us/me that there aren't many others out there with these experiences. Good luck with your new bike and your 120, and good luck when/if you do decide to get a dyno of your own.
Like I said earlier, I would like to think you would not do something like that to a customer but it ran night to day different afterwards.
You're recollection of the events are flawed but you're entitled to yours.
Have a nice life.
Intermediate
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
From: Illinois
WT & scj, my 120 also has cold start issues. Any time it's colder than maybe 70 outside, the starter chugs along between 5 and 10 seconds to grab. I spoke with the tuner and he mentioned he hadn't heard of, nor experienced any cold start problems with my build. Anyhow, once warm, the engine grabs without hesitation. Any suggestions on how I should approach this...or perhaps, should I find another shop? I'm using SEPST.