Suspension gurus- Loading question:
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,916
Likes: 31
From: earth
The operative word is "compromise", there is no magic product that provides an excellent ride in all conditions. You won't find any shock that performs equally well with a 250lb load as it does with a 500lb load, without adjusting it. Look at how you actually spend the majority of your time riding and set it up for that. You can get a premium shock but you will have to establish 2 different tunes for the different loads, and change it accordingly. If you are mostly 2 up you may have to settle for firm ride when you are by yourself, if you are mostly 1 up, you may have to settle for a slightly soft ride when 2 up. After a good bit of tuning, My Ohlins 3-3s work very well 1 or 2 up with just a few clicks of the sweep valve. You might be surprised how much of that unfavorable ride is being translated from the front end, and a majority of your "clunk" issue will be resolved with the correct single rate springs, and the ride will be much better.
Thread Starter
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Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,132
Likes: 25
From: NorCal
The operative word is "compromise", there is no magic product that provides an excellent ride in all conditions. You won't find any shock that performs equally well with a 250lb load as it does with a 500lb load, without adjusting it. Look at how you actually spend the majority of your time riding and set it up for that. You can get a premium shock but you will have to establish 2 different tunes for the different loads, and change it accordingly. If you are mostly 2 up you may have to settle for firm ride when you are by yourself, if you are mostly 1 up, you may have to settle for a slightly soft ride when 2 up. After a good bit of tuning, My Ohlins 3-3s work very well 1 or 2 up with just a few clicks of the sweep valve. You might be surprised how much of that unfavorable ride is being translated from the front end, and a majority of your "clunk" issue will be resolved with the correct single rate springs, and the ride will be much better.
In my experience, they've been good at one thing or another, but never decent at both. I'm looking for something that is comfortable in both situations, but I'm tired of spending $1000 per crack to do it.
As to the front end, I've been told by the guy (Brian I think?) at Ricor that the Intiminators have a clunk on sharp edge bumps because the hydraulic pressure under the emulator is strong enough to push it up off the damper rod for just a split second. When it reseats you hear a clunk. It didn't bother me that much, it was just a peculiarity.
Once I got the oil level right in the forks, I found the Intiminators to be quite effective. I know you modify them to work better. I've been considering trying that out with my spare set of forks.
As my bike sits now, I have the Harley Premium Ride dual cartridges. For some reason they seemed better in my '10 FLHX compared to the '13 FLTRX.
Thread Starter
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Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,132
Likes: 25
From: NorCal
Yes, I had an RT for 5 months.
Keep in mind that the RT is substantially lighter than our bikes, has 5-5/16" of rear suspension travel, and uses a vastly lighter single-sided swingarm and monoshock. Bluntly, there's nothing we can do to emulate that kind of suspension performance on our bikes.
The JRIs do the best that can be done with our bikes. They add 5/8" of travel, which is HUGE. They do an admirable job of isolating rear-wheel motion, and with the sweep valves make adjusting damping for varying roads and loads an easy thing. In truth, the JRIs are better shocks than the stock BMW units that come on the RT or the GS/A, but they're tasked with controlling way more bike with way less travel.
I'll also say that the JRIs give a better ride solo and 2-up than the Ohlins did on my Limited. Not enough that I'd scrap the Ohlins for them (if I still had the bike or the shocks), but they're a definite improvement. I think a big part of that is the additional travel.
Keep in mind that the RT is substantially lighter than our bikes, has 5-5/16" of rear suspension travel, and uses a vastly lighter single-sided swingarm and monoshock. Bluntly, there's nothing we can do to emulate that kind of suspension performance on our bikes.
The JRIs do the best that can be done with our bikes. They add 5/8" of travel, which is HUGE. They do an admirable job of isolating rear-wheel motion, and with the sweep valves make adjusting damping for varying roads and loads an easy thing. In truth, the JRIs are better shocks than the stock BMW units that come on the RT or the GS/A, but they're tasked with controlling way more bike with way less travel.
I'll also say that the JRIs give a better ride solo and 2-up than the Ohlins did on my Limited. Not enough that I'd scrap the Ohlins for them (if I still had the bike or the shocks), but they're a definite improvement. I think a big part of that is the additional travel.
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,090
Likes: 7
Again, try the progressive 412's.They are reasonably priced, adjustable, and work very well. I like a semi firm ride and on the lowest setting, I'm very satisfied with the ride solo and 2 up. The improvement was incredible over the stock air shocks.
Road Warrior
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,783
Likes: 10
From: Oh
Have you thought about maybe pulling a trailer? Keeping the weight off the bike as much as possible by transferring the weight to a trailer. You could lose the tour pak and thereby reduce the weight on the suspension, just a suggestion. Good luck on your issue.
Former Sponsor
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,360
Likes: 453
From: Davie, FL
Adjust the shocks
JCleary, I have been watching this post for a while and I very carefully read your post and analysis of your shocks.
* The statement "The Ohlins were undersprung, although the dampening seemed to be adjustable enough to overcome a stiffer spring rate" makes absolutely no sense. How can under sprung be a stiffer spring rate? The spring rate only overcomes gravity and is not an a part of the suspension system after that part is done. The shock controls the spring and not the other way around. Undoubtedly you do not understand how a real shock should work. Your support never ends with me which means you can call me right now, Sunday, 11:am ESDT.
You need to understand what you are doing or just go to a professional local tuner to have them adjust your shocks for you or come by me at Sturgis if you are going. There is nothing wrong with your shocks but look in the mirror to find out what is wrong. You can either complain or look back into that mirror and find either the guy who can fix it or look for a local tuner.
How can a fully adjustable #3~#3 not work right. The only answer lies with you.
Possible problems:
Keep your own counsel on this matter.
* The statement "The Ohlins were undersprung, although the dampening seemed to be adjustable enough to overcome a stiffer spring rate" makes absolutely no sense. How can under sprung be a stiffer spring rate? The spring rate only overcomes gravity and is not an a part of the suspension system after that part is done. The shock controls the spring and not the other way around. Undoubtedly you do not understand how a real shock should work. Your support never ends with me which means you can call me right now, Sunday, 11:am ESDT.
You need to understand what you are doing or just go to a professional local tuner to have them adjust your shocks for you or come by me at Sturgis if you are going. There is nothing wrong with your shocks but look in the mirror to find out what is wrong. You can either complain or look back into that mirror and find either the guy who can fix it or look for a local tuner.
How can a fully adjustable #3~#3 not work right. The only answer lies with you.
Possible problems:
- Did not call prior to the initial installation.
- Did not follow instructions correctly.
- Did not or could not measure correctly.
- Did not properly align your shocks.
- Call me but read and understand the instructions before hand.
- Buy the tools necessary to do the install that is on the "Unofficial Installation Guide" that I sent you before you paid along with an invoice with item #: 00 __ "I wish you to call me & we will put the shocks on together. Please have shocks in hand & instructions already read & understood" which was on your invoice prior to being able to purchase this product from me.
- If the aforementioned does not work for you than drop by me at Sturgis, Leesburg, or Daytona either in the spring or fall and I will do it for you. I have a 100% satisfaction rate when my customers leave. If you can not experience than you have an unrealistic understanding of how your bike should ride.
Keep your own counsel on this matter.
Last edited by FastHarley; Jul 14, 2013 at 10:12 AM.
Road Captain
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 735
Likes: 5
From: Bluffton,SC
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Club Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 45,429
Likes: 2,898
From: Bedford UK
I'm not opposed to making adjustments at all. In fact, I expect that to be the case. I've just never been reassured that any coilover setup can accommodate a 250lb change in load. I've talked to various shock manufacturers and they all say it's a compromise.
In my experience, they've been good at one thing or another, but never decent at both. I'm looking for something that is comfortable in both situations, but I'm tired of spending $1000 per crack to do it.
In my experience, they've been good at one thing or another, but never decent at both. I'm looking for something that is comfortable in both situations, but I'm tired of spending $1000 per crack to do it.
All things in life are a compromise. If you can't be convinced that coilover shocks can give great results, there is not much hope for you! What else is there out there?
I managed to set up my shocks using Howard's advice and without any further consultation. I hope he is not offended! We are thrilled with the results and have been riding on them for over 3 years. It's the only way to travel!
You've had an offer from Howard, I suggest you take it up.
Thread Starter
|
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,132
Likes: 25
From: NorCal
JCleary, I have been watching this post for a while and I very carefully read your post and analysis of your shocks.
* The statement "The Ohlins were undersprung, although the dampening seemed to be adjustable enough to overcome a stiffer spring rate" makes absolutely no sense. How can under sprung be a stiffer spring rate? The spring rate only overcomes gravity and is not an a part of the suspension system after that part is done. The shock controls the spring and not the other way around. Undoubtedly you do not understand how a real shock should work. Your support never ends with me which means you can call me right now, Sunday, 11:am ESDT.
You need to understand what you are doing or just go to a professional local tuner to have them adjust your shocks for you or come by me at Sturgis if you are going. There is nothing wrong with your shocks but look in the mirror to find out what is wrong. You can either complain or look back into that mirror and find either the guy who can fix it or look for a local tuner.
How can a fully adjustable #3~#3 not work right. The only answer lies with you.
Possible problems:
Keep your own counsel on this matter.
* The statement "The Ohlins were undersprung, although the dampening seemed to be adjustable enough to overcome a stiffer spring rate" makes absolutely no sense. How can under sprung be a stiffer spring rate? The spring rate only overcomes gravity and is not an a part of the suspension system after that part is done. The shock controls the spring and not the other way around. Undoubtedly you do not understand how a real shock should work. Your support never ends with me which means you can call me right now, Sunday, 11:am ESDT.
You need to understand what you are doing or just go to a professional local tuner to have them adjust your shocks for you or come by me at Sturgis if you are going. There is nothing wrong with your shocks but look in the mirror to find out what is wrong. You can either complain or look back into that mirror and find either the guy who can fix it or look for a local tuner.
How can a fully adjustable #3~#3 not work right. The only answer lies with you.
Possible problems:
- Did not call prior to the initial installation.
- Did not follow instructions correctly.
- Did not or could not measure correctly.
- Did not properly align your shocks.
- Call me but read and understand the instructions before hand.
- Buy the tools necessary to do the install that is on the "Unofficial Installation Guide" that I sent you before you paid along with an invoice with item #: 00 __ "I wish you to call me & we will put the shocks on together. Please have shocks in hand & instructions already read & understood" which was on your invoice prior to being able to purchase this product from me.
- If the aforementioned does not work for you than drop by me at Sturgis, Leesburg, or Daytona either in the spring or fall and I will do it for you. I have a 100% satisfaction rate when my customers leave. If you can not experience than you have an unrealistic understanding of how your bike should ride.
Keep your own counsel on this matter.
I completely understand how suspension works.
I stated that the Ohlins were undersprung. Which the particular shocks I had indeed were for a two-up load. I understand spring rate just carries the load. The dampening is a separate issue.
My comment was that the adjustable dampening seemed to have enough range of adjustment to overcome a much stiffer spring rate (and lighter, for that matter). Apparently I need to be more specific when typing a post, as implications cannot often bee seen when reading a post. So, in short, the shock itself could be adjusted to compensate for a spring with a higher spring rate, or lower spring rate should I choose to change it out. Of course you know that too little dampening with a stiff spring results in a pogo effect. I've spent many hours adjusting preload and clicker adjustments to get the ride quality I desired.
So far in this thread, I've received some insightful comments from several members. Only grbrown has actually directly answered my question, which was:
How big of a weight difference can a coil-over shock setup compensate for?
And according to him, a 250lb swing is not an issue for his set of Ohlins.
So far with the Legends, I've noticed that while the spring rate is almost infinite, the dampening is best suited to very heavy loads. Only if there was a clicker adjustment on the Legends...
I'm not opposed to the purchase of another set of Ohlins or JRI's. I just want to know the set can cover the weight difference and provide a good ride both solo and two-up.