Respectfully I would stop going to said dealer. They are ignoring the fact that you are leaving old (and moisture filled) brake fluid in the HCU that you can NOT reliably get out without performing the proper digitally command ABS HCU flush procedure.

There is a reason the majority of the dealers actually perform brake fluid flushing the correct way (and no not just for extra cash!).

 

I'm sorry to inform you that the ABS light not illuminated (after ~ >3 mph as the system will flash the ABS light after restart) does NOT mean your HCU is functioning correctly. It means the sensors (which there are none in the HCU actuators and is NOT tested during the startup routine) are reporting signals and not shorts (speed sensors, etc).

I have had several customers call me stating there ABS light was "off", but had a "hard brake pedal/lever" resulting in one of the brakes no longer functioning (this is due to a destroyed/locked up HCU valve either due to neglect of proper and frequent brake fluid flushing or simply an HCU that has failed for other reasons).

These are facts, not misinformation. Harley is (and has) been spreading misinformation about their system for years in regards to proper maintenance. I originally created my product for personal use as I perform the full flush procedure annually (not every two years as is the line in the maintenance schedule) and I rather have shop confirmation that the ABS HCU actuators are functional while performing my annual winter maintenance (that and I can stomach $8.00 in brake fluid versus the $150+ at the dealership to perform the same routine).

 

In a funny (well more ironic) way I actually do: https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/201...8V076-3366.pdf

In other words, the actions that HD directs the dealers to perform for that recall include the Digital Tech procedure for actuating the HCU valves. Now, think about that for a minute. The dealer is NOT introducing air into the system during the recall procedure, yet they are directed to perform said actuation procedure.

Why? Simple, HD knows that not only is there old fluid trapped in the HCU (by design unfortunately) but that you ideally want to verify HCU valve actuation is happening. <---BY THE WAY, this is the SAFE way to verify operation. I have heard countless owners tell me "Well just lock it up good on the road to verify operation". That's not only unsafe for many reasons, but it's a great way to find that your already compromised HCU has now locked up while riding leaving you with the "fun" of riding home with one less brake (not saying this will happen, saying this CAN happen if your HCU is already toast. Much rather find this out at home in your shop or at the dealer).

 

On the one hand, you're pointing the finger at H-D for spreading misinformation. On the other hand, you're using H-D (mis)information to make your case. You can't have it both ways. You really should preface any comments you make and have made in every brake fluid thread created on this forum with "in my opinion" and "because I'm trying to sell a product".

The HCU failures in the '08-'11 ABS model bikes, in my opinion, were because of design, engineering and material failures, not solely because of moisture in the brake fluid. Do you think other motorcycle manufacturers with ABS have had and are having frozen hand and foot brakes similar to what H-D riders are and were experiencing with their '08-'11 models? Have there been any significant HCU failures in H-D ABS bike models manufactured in subsequent years? If there are, the failures and recalls haven't been making the news. No, I don't think there are fewer HCU failures because, all of a sudden, riders are flushing their brake fluid more frequently than they did in the past. In my opinion, there are fewer failures solely because of changes in design, engineering and materials of the HCU components..

If it's true that there are a few milliliters of tainted (with 4% moisture) brake fluid left inside the HCU after a brake flush, which IMO there isn't, do you really believe this is going to cause a catastrophic failure of the brake system in 2 years or less? Why, if there is such a high probability of potential failure, doesn't H-D code HCU valve actuation into the ECM so that those of us who perform our own maintenance can activate the HCU when performing brake fluid flushes? It's because it is not a requirement to activate the HCU when performing a simple brake fluid flush, that's why!

Dude, I know you're trying to sell a product, but it's time to stop with the fear mongering. In my opinion, that is.

 

Your wrong and for someone selling a product not your not being honest to the public.
Educate yourself with the Harley Davidson Touring Shop Manuals for the Rushmore bikes.
Brake system flushes do not need to activate the ABS Module, maybe you are not aware but for someone selling the product that would seem almost negligent or self serving to suggest that it required or even suggested by HD.

Furthermore to suggest to a forum member that he or she should go to another dealer is negligent and self serving because that dealer actually is informed and educated on Harley Davidson service procedures and clearly you are not.

The only time ABS module is to be activated is if air is introduced into the system, ex. Maintenance work, caliper/brake line replacement ect. this is called bleeding the brake system.

A brake system flush is called, well, a brake fluid flush/changing the brake fluid.

(and by the way, any tiny amount of old brake fluid remaining in any brake system will get dried out/moisture removed by the new brake fluid. Meaning the new fluid will absorb any moisture in the system, which is one of its purposes to begin with.)

You post a recall document for a 3 year period on 2008 to 2011 and come into the Rushmore section and use it to promote a product?

One again, back to my other posts in here, freaking forums can take the most basic simple task and turn it upside down and inside out into the most discussed complicated procedure, amazing!
What pisses me off the most, you wrongly tell member here to switch Harley Davidson Dealer because that dealer gave the the correct information and not ripping him off on an unneeded ABS activation brake bleed.
YPD485 stick with that dealer, they sound honest and educated. )

... and by the way ... all this endless talk on this recall subject involved 3 years from 2008 to 2011, one in which there was a part suspected of corroding in the ABS system and possibly causing it to fail or brakes to fail. In all this time, there are a handful of people this has happened too and out of that handful one known non serious injury when he bumped into his garage door and fell off the bike.
IN ALL CASES NO ONE WAS FOLLOWING THE REQUIRED TWO YEAR BRAKE FLUID FLUSH./. which is required on almost every brand motorcycle sold.

Im not saying you are intentionally misleading people to sell your product, only you would know that, I am saying your posts on the subject are wrong, if your product does what you claim, there is a purpose for it and that is anyone doing work on or replacing brake parts/calipers, lines ect where bleeding the system is required then according to Harley Davidson the ABS system must be activated as part of that brake bleed.

If you are simply changing the brake fluid/flushing, then according to Harley Davidson shop manual on the touring bikes, no ABS activation is called for.

Peace ./..

 

Of course anything ANYONE says on these forums has a modicum of "This is my opinion" implied. To say otherwise is not being honest. With that being said, I'm not spreading "misinformation" based on what I see day in day out with these systems. If you chose to not believe me, that is (of course) your right. Further more, I posted to chime in on a topic I feel I know quite well. If you think I post solely "because I'm trying to sell a product" I have news, I'm not. I'm first and foremost and enthusiast of all vehicles be it cars or bikes. My secondary goal of selling ABS flush tools is way down the priority list (and I can assure you I'm not making a living selling my ABS product, more like funding development for other projects).

Not to be THAT guy, but who is spreading misinformation now? To my knowledge (please provide a source if possible) HD has yet to admit that this is the case ("design, engineering and material failures") is a contributing factor in the HCU failures. In fact, the ONLY thing they blame is a combination of the "old" style (plain jane DOT 4 fluid) and not following the maintenance schedule for flushing the fluid out.

It's absolutely true that fluid is trapped inside the HCU after a "normal" flush. Additionally the activation of the ABS system (read: HCU valve actuation commanded by the ABS controller) is VERY rare (and brief at that).

Let's discuss this further: So you realize that a major (some would speculate MOST) of the revenue a dealership (not just Harley, any vehicle manufacturer essentially) is from service right? It's not a surprise when manufacturers make procedures (and even sometimes tools) proprietary or "special". It keeps the average DIY guy bringing their vehicle back for certain procedures. Want another example of how Harley ensures service revenue? The radio on the newer touring bikes. Go ahead and try to add an aftermarket amplifier to your bike and then try to modify the EQ curve so that you aren't dealing with a wildly bass heavy boosted curve....you have two options: Install an aftermarket DSP that you can try to "tame" the curve (not ideal) or better yet go to a Harley dealership and have them "flash" (it's not really a flash, but I digress) your radio to now have "Amp 1 and Amp 2 disabled/4 speaker" modes set. <----Why can't the owner simply select this in a menu within their touring radio themselves!?!? Simple: More revenue at the dealership as it requires a "special" tool (DT2) AND it keeps customers from drifting far from the Boom audio kits that HD sells (yes I am very aware there are aftermarket products that can perform said flash as well, go ahead and price them you'll see the gouging never ends).



Once again, you have misjudged me. If I never sold another product again I would be just fine (read comment above in reference to this is not how I make a living). I am simply stating that this is a problem that has a relatively simple (and in my opinion) cheap solution. If you don't agree, don't buy it. Not a problem and you are not offending me in the least.

 

Haha I love that I sparked this debate.

I read thru it and I applaud the man selling a device that's activates the abs. That's dope that you came up with that. It will come in handy if the old lady doesn't pour the dot 4 fast enough and air gets in the line.

Unfortunately fake news gets spread like political views, service manual says no where that you need digital tech 2 to brake bleed correctly. Only need it if air gets in the line. If you have evidence supporting otherwise please post it.

 

Let's agree to disagree I suppose. Not only am I not solely here to sell ABS utilities (refer to my other post to Galv please), but I'm trying to point out that while the manuals indeed have verbiage about this procedure not required the reality is most dealerships ARE performing this procedure during brake flush jobs. I provided evidence (albeit in a recall procedure), but my point remains: Even on those "old" bikes the manuals said the same thing (i.e. not required unless air is introduced into the system). Once again, IF it's truly not required then the only thing I can speculate (and that's all really any of us can do unless we have insider MoCo knowledge) is that somehow HD anticipated dealers would be introducing air into the HCU during the recall procedure (i.e a standard brake fluid flush and replace job). Of course that's not true (i.e. air introduction). The reason is to fully evacuate the old brake fluid and safely verify the HCU is functioning (i.e. command valve actuation in the shop).

Admittedly this is my opinion ("other dealer") comment. I don't agree that my comment was "negligent and self serving". In fact quite the opposite. I make zero dollars if someone goes to a dealership for this procedure obviously. Now if I said "Don't go to the dealership for ABS flushing, ONLY buy my product!".....THAT would be said "self serving". My point was I don't believe the dealership selected by that customer is being as thorough as they can be. If nothing else, I would expect that for $150 (I know prices vary wildly) a dealership flushing brake fluid would spend the extra 2 minutes to hook up the DT2 and perform the HCU actuation procedure. If for no other reason, it is THE correct and safe way to verify the HCU is actually functioning. Case in point: I have many people calling me to say that "the dealership broke my HCU with their DT2 device during a brake flush". Guess what? It already was toast, they just found out in the shop when the DT2 commanded the valves to open and you realized in a quiet/safe setting they were either not actuated on the road and/or the duration of more than a few milliseconds exposed the already degraded status. To ME that is worth it's wait in safety gold (i.e. I would rather have a brake component fail/be verified on a bike lift that on the road). So once again, if said dealership is NOT providing this service in the pricey fluid flush job that to ME is not a place I would take my pride and joy (and my safety).

That is YOUR opinion. The actual amount of time the HCU valves are acuated on the road are rare and brief. I wouldn't be confident of proper fluid evacuation from the HCU without a shop tool to command the valves open while safely (read: bike off and in a shop) squeezing or pressing the lever/pedal repeatedly during valve opening.

I posted that recall document to prove a point (not necessarily sell a product, that of course is implied, but not my primary goal). Once again, IF air introduction is the ONLY reason to perform the DT2 procedure then why is it included in the recall procedure that in the end is a swap out of the "old" DOT4 fluid to the "improved" DOT 4 fluid? Simple, its the only way to ensure all old fluid is evacuated and it's the only safe way to verify HCU health if you will.

I am sorry you feel this way, wasn't my intention to "wrongly tell" anyone anything. It is MY OPINION. Not hiding that fact. It's also my opinion that once again this procedure is simple (and most dealerships DO perform this during said brake flush job) for just the reasons I posted above. If YOU are comfortable with your dealership not performing it (and charging you >$100 in most cases), by all means proceed.

I highly disagree. In my admittedly small sample (i.e. my customers) I have had at least 5 clients call me with HCU issues yet claim they followed the maintenance schedule (i.e. 2 years or less) for brake fluid flushing. The common thread was each of them had performed the procedure at home (i.e. no valve actuation possible at the time). Think about that: My sample set (i.e. my clients) is FAR less than the total # of bikes sold during those years and yet I have at least (probably more as I talk to a lot of people each week on the phone) 5 people that have HCU issues. Is it the fluid? Maybe! Is it trapped "old" fluid in the HCU? Maybe! Is it something else and you won't know until you have the infamous hard pedal/lever in the garage (or worse on the road)? Maybe! One thing I can say confidently, you can't safely test the HCU without a tool to perform this procedure. Take all of this for what you will. I can tell you that it took the MoCo at least (if we go by model year 2011 which is the end of the range in the recall) 7 years to publish the recall. Short of a design (and possibly materials or coating) change I would not be confident that this won't appear in later bikes.

Then again, I don't trust vehicle manufacturers to be honest about squat for obvious liability reasons. A great case in point (once again) is that recall/service bulletin. It's double speak at it's finest. In the beginning of the "Purpose" section it states "testing indicates that if brake fluid is not flushed for a prolonged period of time beyond the 2-year maintenance schedule specified in the owner’s manual and service manual, a braking issue may develop". What is their "solution"? Flush the brake fluid and not only flush the fluid but flush it with a DIFFERENT "new" fluid. OK! However, scroll down to the section "Q: Should the dealers dispose of the older DOT 4 currently in stock?". Their answer is NO (because apparently bikes outside this recall can use the "old" DOT 4 flavor fluid just fine. <----So wait, is the problem a result of not flushing fluid every 2 years OR is it a fluid incompatibility OR is it both? You get my point here I am sure: Your bike, your money, your decisions. I do what I feel prudent in regards to this topic. If YOU don't agree/trust the dealer/etc, by all means. In fact as I stated in the other response, I'm not here to make a living from selling flush utilities. I'm here to discuss a topic I feel I know well (and am passionate about).

I can assure you (again) that's not my goal (i.e. misleading). Not only am I an honest person, but the incentive (i.e. monetarily) is not there to even bother. We will simply have to agree to disagree on this topic as I have seen (and heard) too much to say "no ABS activation is called for".

 

After all of this, I'm still wondering why mine works perfectly after I had introduced air into my system. The air was evacuated, bled-out, and all works perfectly. We ride two-up 90% of the time, up and DOWN the mountains here in Colorado and with 53,000 miles on the bike, I see no difference in braking before or after and with the traffic increasing here it's been tested way too many times . Was it because I didn't apply the brakes while it had air in the system or was I just lucky

 

A combination of factors most likely (i.e. the air never got into the HCU itself). If the HCU has air inside, the only reliable (read: safe) way to ensure it does NOT have air in it is to perform the ABS HCU actuation procedure.

If it works for you and YOU are confident in your braking system functionality that is all that matters.