engine history question
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Cruiser
Joined: Jan 2007
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From: Fort Campbell, KY
engine history question
If I understand correctly....the knucklehead engine was replaced with the panhead engine. And the panhead engine was replaced with the shovelhead engine. Was the shovelhead engine replaced with the evolution engine? Where does the Ironhead engine fit into all this? That's my biggest confusion. And what about the flathead engine....what's the story on that one?
I'm trying to get a little educated on the Harley engines and I've gotten a little lost. Thanks for any help.
I'm trying to get a little educated on the Harley engines and I've gotten a little lost. Thanks for any help.
Road Captain
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 554
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From: Western Washington State
RE: engine history question
You have the history correct; the K series was introduce in 1953 as all new, later, 1957, it became known as the Sportster and it was 1957 that was fitted with a cast iron head, hence the name Ironhead. The other large Harley's got the EVO in 1984 but the Sportster didn't get the EVO version until 1986.
FBL
FBL
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Cruiser
Joined: Jan 2007
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From: Fort Campbell, KY
RE: engine history question
Fatboylust,
So are you saying that all pre-evos back as far as 1957 were Ironheads? Knuckleheads, Panheads, and Shovelheads all fall under the catagory Ironhead? So that makes my 1983 Sportster a Shovelhead? And I could also call it an Ironhead?
Thanks the info.
So are you saying that all pre-evos back as far as 1957 were Ironheads? Knuckleheads, Panheads, and Shovelheads all fall under the catagory Ironhead? So that makes my 1983 Sportster a Shovelhead? And I could also call it an Ironhead?
Thanks the info.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Oct 2005
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From: Santa Klaus County, Cali
RE: engine history question
strickrodt70...its not what hez saying. K models were 55 cu in side valvle motors, in 57 HD introduced the 55 cu in overhead models and designated them the Sportster. Theywere giventhe nickname "ironheads" and remained so till they switched to the evo stuff (I know a I am being very general here.)
Knuckles went from 36-47, pans from 48-65, shovels from 66-84 1/2 when evo motors were introduced. Into all those years add compression changes, designations for tank shift police, sport, solo, sidecar models and the like and you get several different models. At the end tho it still a knuckle, pan or a shovel.
K models were a big step up from the flathead 45s (45 to 55 cu inches) and came with several compression, model motor configuaration as well. But it was still a side-valve. 57 sportys were overhead vlaves like their bigger brother the panhead.
Only sportys were designated ironheads, the nickname given cuz it was fitted with a cast iron head as mentioned by fatboylust. Pans and knuckles are nicknames for the 48-65 and 36-47 engine configurations. HD didnt think up the nicknames, it came from the folks riding them. Moco just did the typical patent trademark on the nickname when they realized that no one could stop 'em.
Knuckles went from 36-47, pans from 48-65, shovels from 66-84 1/2 when evo motors were introduced. Into all those years add compression changes, designations for tank shift police, sport, solo, sidecar models and the like and you get several different models. At the end tho it still a knuckle, pan or a shovel.
K models were a big step up from the flathead 45s (45 to 55 cu inches) and came with several compression, model motor configuaration as well. But it was still a side-valve. 57 sportys were overhead vlaves like their bigger brother the panhead.
Only sportys were designated ironheads, the nickname given cuz it was fitted with a cast iron head as mentioned by fatboylust. Pans and knuckles are nicknames for the 48-65 and 36-47 engine configurations. HD didnt think up the nicknames, it came from the folks riding them. Moco just did the typical patent trademark on the nickname when they realized that no one could stop 'em.
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Cruiser
Joined: Jan 2007
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From: Fort Campbell, KY
RE: engine history question
I think the fog is starting to lift. Thanks panz4ever. I read a history article online but it didn't explain the Ironhead term. So only Sportsters are called Ironheads....up until the Evo engines. Some Sportsters were Pans and some were Shovels. But none were Knuckles because the Sportster didn't come out until 1957. How does that sound, am I on the right track? Thanks.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Oct 2005
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From: Santa Klaus County, Cali
RE: engine history question
Close....but no cigar. Rule #1... erase anything in your mind as far as knuckles, pans and shovels having anything to do with sportys. Yes they are all HD and yes there are a couple of parts thatmight beinterchangeable with the big twins but that is where it stops.
Rule #2...Sportys were born in 1957. Their ancestry was based on the K model side-vlaves, but what made it was the overhead valves (common to the pans being produced at that time). This was a design that could match the English racing twins, rocker for rocker. In addition to overhead valves was the reduced stroke and bigger bore (a big advantage over side-valves).
I could go on and on about Sportys, only because my first bike was a K model and from there to a 61 cu in sporty to a 65 pan whenI cam home from Viet Nam.
If you got a couple of mean green, pick up "Harley Davidson, The American History" , text by Allan Girdler, photos by Ron Hussey. Has a very good section dealing with the old side valve racers, overhead valve racers and the street version of the same which came to be know as the Sporster.
Rule #2...Sportys were born in 1957. Their ancestry was based on the K model side-vlaves, but what made it was the overhead valves (common to the pans being produced at that time). This was a design that could match the English racing twins, rocker for rocker. In addition to overhead valves was the reduced stroke and bigger bore (a big advantage over side-valves).
I could go on and on about Sportys, only because my first bike was a K model and from there to a 61 cu in sporty to a 65 pan whenI cam home from Viet Nam.
If you got a couple of mean green, pick up "Harley Davidson, The American History" , text by Allan Girdler, photos by Ron Hussey. Has a very good section dealing with the old side valve racers, overhead valve racers and the street version of the same which came to be know as the Sporster.
Road Captain
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 554
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From: Western Washington State
RE: engine history question
1953 K models and the Ironhead Sportster 1957 to 1985were 4 cam engines. The Sportster didn't share any engine family characteristics with the "Big twins" Knuckleheads, Panheads, and Shovelheads, then in 1986 Harley adapted the EVO design cylinders and cylinder heads to a new Sportster single cam case the cylinders andheads had been introduced with the Big twin EVO in 1984.
Sorry I didn't make it clearer the first time, thanks panz4ever for your help too.
FBL
Sorry I didn't make it clearer the first time, thanks panz4ever for your help too.
FBL
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Tourer
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 459
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From: Florida
RE: engine history question
ORIGINAL: fatboylust
1953 K models and the Ironhead Sportster 1957 to 1985were 4 cam engines. The Sportster didn't share any engine family characteristics with the "Big twins" Knuckleheads, Panheads, and Shovelheads, then in 1986 Harley adapted the EVO design cylinders and cylinder heads to a new Sportster single cam case the cylinders andheads had been introduced with the Big twin EVO in 1984.
Sorry I didn't make it clearer the first time, thanks panz4ever for your help too.
FBL
1953 K models and the Ironhead Sportster 1957 to 1985were 4 cam engines. The Sportster didn't share any engine family characteristics with the "Big twins" Knuckleheads, Panheads, and Shovelheads, then in 1986 Harley adapted the EVO design cylinders and cylinder heads to a new Sportster single cam case the cylinders andheads had been introduced with the Big twin EVO in 1984.
Sorry I didn't make it clearer the first time, thanks panz4ever for your help too.
FBL
I think Evo sportys have 4 cam shafts also.
Basically the sportster should be thought of as a totally different engine than any other Harley. The Flathead, knucklehead, panhead, shovelhead, evolution and Twin Cam EVO refer to the big twin or large frame Harleys. The Shovelhead had aluminium heads with one camshaftand was a big twin engine in the FL or FX frame. The Ironhead had a cast iron head with four camshafts andmounted in the XL frames. The rocker covers on the engine are similar which leads to confusion as to what motor you're looking at, but after looking below the rockers few parts look the same.
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Seasoned HDF Member
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From: Texas! Ya mean there's someplace else?
RE: engine history question
Go here and enjoy yourself: http://mypage.iusb.edu/~bbryner/hrlypage.html
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Cruiser
Joined: Jan 2007
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From: Fort Campbell, KY
RE: engine history question
Thanks Pococj, that link looks great. I'm going there and I'm going to enjoy myself.Thanks for all the help from everybody. I think I've got a basic understand of the Harley engines now.
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