How long to "relearn" new pipes?
Tourer
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 348
Likes: 5
From: The mitten state
Faast Ed, I know you are not thrilled with any response I might offer, but this one time I will answer your question again. (and in the interest of those that wish to understand how it works, here goes.)
First the reason the "re-learn" is in service manuals for CARS, is because any "service" that defeats an emissions device or prevents a vehicle from PASSING an emission test, must be covered in a service manual to correct before it goes back to a customer.
(And more to the point before it goes on a certified emissions test. If the vehicle preparation for a certified tests asks for a particular procedure, like a “re-learn” to insure the fuel control is “normalized” THAT procedure must also be followed and documented in the service manual after any service that may also affect emissions output! As some vehicle might not pass a certified test, to insure a proper “prep” is done before emissions testing!, it must be stated in the manual to "relearn" the ECM after any reset has occurred. ( and a re-flash does reset ECM values).
MOTOR CYLES are not subject to the same low emissions levels as cars. They (motorcycles) are regulated, but the actual amount (in gm/mi) for emission constituents ( HC, NOX, And CO) are not the same.
With that in mind, Harley engines may well pass the less stringent motorcycle emissions levels, even without a “re-learn” of the fuel cells. If they do "pass" without a re-learn, Harley does not need to instruct their service personnel to “re-learn”, after service, nor would they be required to include it in a service manual.
As far as when Harley's started "learning" that happened when the first O2 equipped CLOSED LOOP calibrations were released!(The ION knock sensor system also has an “ADAPT” value that is “learned” and is store even after the key is off. So more than just FUEL control values are “learned” and stored between key cycles.)
The so call "AFV" ( air fuel values) are part of the closed loop fuel control Harley uses. They are really the Long Term Memory of fuel control. When the integrator ( the short term correction ) of fuel control switches from rich to lean and lean to rich, it has to held "close" to the switch point ( or in SERT Terms The CLB, close loop bias.) If the INTEGRATOR ( the base unit of fuel control switching) is allowed or is caused to run too far! It can cause both stalling and drive issues as well the fact that when the integrator "hangs" too long on one side of the switch point ( CLB) the system is out of control.
The range of the fuel INTEGRTOR is limited. As the INTEGRATOR is the correction to delivered pulse width, if it were allowed to “run” without limit, on the lean side, the INTGRATOR could shut off ALL fuel at it’s zero point. So the “INTEGRATOR’S value” must be kept in an operational window. The means for doing that IS the Long Term memory or the AFV, stored in the NVM. Those AFV insure as operating conditions change the INTEGRATOR is near it’s control operating point! Each CELL has it's stored value, as the engine is operated, and RPM and load change, the fuel control changes "cells" The "CELLS" are defined by RPM and LOAD. When the cell changes due to changes in RPM and LOAD,that cells "learned" value keeps the INTEGRATOR near the switch point.
The Long Term memory ( or AFV's learned and stored in CELLS) is an intergal part of closed loop fuel control!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The last big change in Harley fuel control was in model year 2009. The base for command fuel in most of the fuel tables was switched from "A/F Ratio" commanded to "LAMBDA" commanded. There are good software reasons (space and Time calculation in the software, called "through put") that are saved when "LAMBDA" is the table value, as opposed to "A/F ratio". But even before 2009 when "A/F ratio" was the "command fuel", closed loop control had "learning" of the AFV (or long term memory values).
If a Harley is closed loop fuel controled, it has a fuel "LEARN".
Granted Harley did have OPEN LOOP only fuel injected engines, and as such without closed loop control, there was no learning! But once closed loop (O2 sesnors) were used, so too did they have a "LEARN."
First the reason the "re-learn" is in service manuals for CARS, is because any "service" that defeats an emissions device or prevents a vehicle from PASSING an emission test, must be covered in a service manual to correct before it goes back to a customer.
(And more to the point before it goes on a certified emissions test. If the vehicle preparation for a certified tests asks for a particular procedure, like a “re-learn” to insure the fuel control is “normalized” THAT procedure must also be followed and documented in the service manual after any service that may also affect emissions output! As some vehicle might not pass a certified test, to insure a proper “prep” is done before emissions testing!, it must be stated in the manual to "relearn" the ECM after any reset has occurred. ( and a re-flash does reset ECM values).
MOTOR CYLES are not subject to the same low emissions levels as cars. They (motorcycles) are regulated, but the actual amount (in gm/mi) for emission constituents ( HC, NOX, And CO) are not the same.
With that in mind, Harley engines may well pass the less stringent motorcycle emissions levels, even without a “re-learn” of the fuel cells. If they do "pass" without a re-learn, Harley does not need to instruct their service personnel to “re-learn”, after service, nor would they be required to include it in a service manual.
As far as when Harley's started "learning" that happened when the first O2 equipped CLOSED LOOP calibrations were released!(The ION knock sensor system also has an “ADAPT” value that is “learned” and is store even after the key is off. So more than just FUEL control values are “learned” and stored between key cycles.)
The so call "AFV" ( air fuel values) are part of the closed loop fuel control Harley uses. They are really the Long Term Memory of fuel control. When the integrator ( the short term correction ) of fuel control switches from rich to lean and lean to rich, it has to held "close" to the switch point ( or in SERT Terms The CLB, close loop bias.) If the INTEGRATOR ( the base unit of fuel control switching) is allowed or is caused to run too far! It can cause both stalling and drive issues as well the fact that when the integrator "hangs" too long on one side of the switch point ( CLB) the system is out of control.
The range of the fuel INTEGRTOR is limited. As the INTEGRATOR is the correction to delivered pulse width, if it were allowed to “run” without limit, on the lean side, the INTGRATOR could shut off ALL fuel at it’s zero point. So the “INTEGRATOR’S value” must be kept in an operational window. The means for doing that IS the Long Term memory or the AFV, stored in the NVM. Those AFV insure as operating conditions change the INTEGRATOR is near it’s control operating point! Each CELL has it's stored value, as the engine is operated, and RPM and load change, the fuel control changes "cells" The "CELLS" are defined by RPM and LOAD. When the cell changes due to changes in RPM and LOAD,that cells "learned" value keeps the INTEGRATOR near the switch point.
The Long Term memory ( or AFV's learned and stored in CELLS) is an intergal part of closed loop fuel control!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The last big change in Harley fuel control was in model year 2009. The base for command fuel in most of the fuel tables was switched from "A/F Ratio" commanded to "LAMBDA" commanded. There are good software reasons (space and Time calculation in the software, called "through put") that are saved when "LAMBDA" is the table value, as opposed to "A/F ratio". But even before 2009 when "A/F ratio" was the "command fuel", closed loop control had "learning" of the AFV (or long term memory values).
If a Harley is closed loop fuel controled, it has a fuel "LEARN".
Granted Harley did have OPEN LOOP only fuel injected engines, and as such without closed loop control, there was no learning! But once closed loop (O2 sesnors) were used, so too did they have a "LEARN."
Last edited by FBRR; Nov 3, 2010 at 02:44 PM.
Banned
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 7,580
Likes: 7
From: The Internet (& Dyer, Indiana)
As far as when Harley's started "learning" that happened when the first O2 equipped CLOSED LOOP calibrations were released!(The ION knock sensor system also has an “ADAPT” value that is “learned” and is store even after the key is off. So more than just FUEL control values are “learned” and stored between key cycles.)
Great, it can remember (tiny useless info). Bwahahaha!
Wasted all these hours splitting hairs over technical terms, when in the end we still have the same ecm we always had that is good for a stock motor only, and runs that stock motor lean as hell. Pathetic.
I had my hopes up (after reading all these posts) that the newer ecm's had some sort of great improvement. Bunch of crap. People showing off that they know big words "I'm an engineer", and we still have the same crappy ecm that really shouldn't be used with aftermarket stuff.
I'm done with this thread.
.
Last edited by Faast Ed; Nov 3, 2010 at 05:02 PM.
Tourer
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 348
Likes: 5
From: The mitten state
"Useless (unless you keep your bike totally stock, or reflash your ecm)."
Let's see, Harley calibrates for STOCK engines and it works. They provide a "stage" flashes for known hardware! Yet because you can't install ANY hardware or made multple changes, the system is no good!
Closed loop does exactly what it was designed to do! Compensate for any and all changes in temperature, altitude, and seasonal changes in fuel, as well as production variation.
There isn't a CAR system made that "self" adjusts for any change in the engine you might make, yet the HArley system is NO GOOD because you have to re-tune with multiple hardware changes!!
RIGHT!
Let's see, Harley calibrates for STOCK engines and it works. They provide a "stage" flashes for known hardware! Yet because you can't install ANY hardware or made multple changes, the system is no good!
Closed loop does exactly what it was designed to do! Compensate for any and all changes in temperature, altitude, and seasonal changes in fuel, as well as production variation.
There isn't a CAR system made that "self" adjusts for any change in the engine you might make, yet the HArley system is NO GOOD because you have to re-tune with multiple hardware changes!!
RIGHT!
Banned
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 7,580
Likes: 7
From: The Internet (& Dyer, Indiana)
"Useless (unless you keep your bike totally stock, or reflash your ecm)."
Let's see, Harley calibrates for STOCK engines and it works. They provide a "stage" flashes for known hardware! Yet because you can't install ANY hardware or made multple changes, the system is no good!
Closed loop does exactly what it was designed to do! Compensate for any and all changes in temperature, altitude, and seasonal changes in fuel, as well as production variation.
There isn't a CAR system made that "self" adjusts for any change in the engine you might make, yet the HArley system is NO GOOD because you have to re-tune with multiple hardware changes!!
RIGHT!
Let's see, Harley calibrates for STOCK engines and it works. They provide a "stage" flashes for known hardware! Yet because you can't install ANY hardware or made multple changes, the system is no good!
Closed loop does exactly what it was designed to do! Compensate for any and all changes in temperature, altitude, and seasonal changes in fuel, as well as production variation.
There isn't a CAR system made that "self" adjusts for any change in the engine you might make, yet the HArley system is NO GOOD because you have to re-tune with multiple hardware changes!!
RIGHT!
I just got thru reading pages full of people implying that this ecm can suddenly do miricals,.... learn all kinds of chit. Learn the abc's! You had peaked my interest. It had gone completely against what I had experienced all these years. Then when the bubble burst, it all came back to the same ****. You can't do nothing much with it.
I'm familiar with the closed loop bias that you so "technically" spoke of. I played with it on my SERT years ago until I nailed it. Well above default but also below the max (so many had been preaching to max it out, but the dyno showed otherwise). It would get hung up searching, and got sluggish in the corrections,.... when set to the maxed out setting.
This entire thread has been about splitting hairs over terminology, so's people could show off their big words. It's still the same ecm it always was, the one I knew so well. A bunch of rubbish.
I defy anybody who "thinks" they put mods on their bikes and it learned to accomidate,... I defy you to put it on a dyno with an exhaust sniffer and show me your results. "Show me the money". Instead of wasting my time with this bullshit.
Road Warrior
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,900
Likes: 12
Come one guys. PM this ****. Nobody is learning anything in you all's debate. I think you guys know how this **** works, but can't agree to disagree. I hope I am not sticking my hand in the fire, but fugit. You gotta do it sometimes.
The only thing I have gotten from the conversation between you two is that Faast Ed says the ECM doesn't learn, but I don't think he is talking about the Adaptive Fuel Values. FBBR is correct when he says it does learn because it learns. When you reset the AFV they are learned again. Correct?
Can we agree on that?
I am on the side of err. I know that when you have a closed system designed to run with specific parts, and then you change something in that closed system. It will not run efficiently. There is no doubt about it. It may work, but it ain't working right. If it did work right, you would not have to tune your bike. EVER! And we all know that is the real BULLSHIT! Cause you do have to tune these sumbitches. Even with a simple setup like mine. A Stage 1 A/C on a 96" stock cam bike with stock exhaust. It needed tuning. Imagine that.
I am not down on any of you guys. I hope you don't get down on me for my comments. I have learned from both of you, and wish to continue learning. I just think PMs are for the mud slinging.
The only thing I have gotten from the conversation between you two is that Faast Ed says the ECM doesn't learn, but I don't think he is talking about the Adaptive Fuel Values. FBBR is correct when he says it does learn because it learns. When you reset the AFV they are learned again. Correct?
Can we agree on that?
I am on the side of err. I know that when you have a closed system designed to run with specific parts, and then you change something in that closed system. It will not run efficiently. There is no doubt about it. It may work, but it ain't working right. If it did work right, you would not have to tune your bike. EVER! And we all know that is the real BULLSHIT! Cause you do have to tune these sumbitches. Even with a simple setup like mine. A Stage 1 A/C on a 96" stock cam bike with stock exhaust. It needed tuning. Imagine that.
I am not down on any of you guys. I hope you don't get down on me for my comments. I have learned from both of you, and wish to continue learning. I just think PMs are for the mud slinging.
Banned
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 7,580
Likes: 7
From: The Internet (& Dyer, Indiana)
Come one guys. PM this ****. Nobody is learning anything in you all's debate. I think you guys know how this **** works, but can't agree to disagree. I hope I am not sticking my hand in the fire, but fugit. You gotta do it sometimes.
The only thing I have gotten from the conversation between you two is that Faast Ed says the ECM doesn't learn, but I don't think he is talking about the Adaptive Fuel Values. FBBR is correct when he says it does learn because it learns. When you reset the AFV they are learned again. Correct?
Can we agree on that?
I am on the side of err. I know that when you have a closed system designed to run with specific parts, and then you change something in that closed system. It will not run efficiently. There is no doubt about it. It may work, but it ain't working right. If it did work right, you would not have to tune your bike. EVER! And we all know that is the real BULLSHIT! Cause you do have to tune these sumbitches. Even with a simple setup like mine. A Stage 1 A/C on a 96" stock cam bike with stock exhaust. It needed tuning. Imagine that.
I am not down on any of you guys. I hope you don't get down on me for my comments. I have learned from both of you, and wish to continue learning. I just think PMs are for the mud slinging.
The only thing I have gotten from the conversation between you two is that Faast Ed says the ECM doesn't learn, but I don't think he is talking about the Adaptive Fuel Values. FBBR is correct when he says it does learn because it learns. When you reset the AFV they are learned again. Correct?
Can we agree on that?
I am on the side of err. I know that when you have a closed system designed to run with specific parts, and then you change something in that closed system. It will not run efficiently. There is no doubt about it. It may work, but it ain't working right. If it did work right, you would not have to tune your bike. EVER! And we all know that is the real BULLSHIT! Cause you do have to tune these sumbitches. Even with a simple setup like mine. A Stage 1 A/C on a 96" stock cam bike with stock exhaust. It needed tuning. Imagine that.
I am not down on any of you guys. I hope you don't get down on me for my comments. I have learned from both of you, and wish to continue learning. I just think PMs are for the mud slinging.
I look forward to seeing you in other discussions.
Again, thank you.
Over and out.
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Road Master
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,199
Likes: 1
From: Nude Hampster....
Ummmmmm. You would never say "over and out" ...
"Over" means you have finished your transmission and are ready to receive a response.
"Out" means you have finished your transmission and finished with any future transmissions (for the meantime at least..)
So you would NEVER say "over and out" ... Even if they do say it in NYPD Blue...
and I'm not even an engineer...
Of course I'm just messing with you though...(I couldn't resist...)
"Over" means you have finished your transmission and are ready to receive a response.
"Out" means you have finished your transmission and finished with any future transmissions (for the meantime at least..)
So you would NEVER say "over and out" ... Even if they do say it in NYPD Blue...
and I'm not even an engineer...
Of course I'm just messing with you though...(I couldn't resist...)