I'm about to have V&H Big Shots Staggered pipes and a SE Stage 1 A/C kit installed on my '09 Fat Bob.

Can the dealer re-map or tune that set-up with the existing HD EFI computer or do I need a Fuelpak or Power Commander or some aftermarket black box?

If so, will I get as good a result using the existing HD computer?

One local dealer says yes, we get better results using a dyno-tune with the stock computer than any of the aftermarket ones and the other dealership says no, we can only adjust the stock EFI 10% either way and you'll get better results with a dyno-tune and an aftermarket box.

?????????? sheesh, whatever happened to carbs and jets

 

So here's the conventional wisdom on the topic:

Don't get the 'Harley Download' which just reflashes the EFI. It's too expensive for the little it does.

In the area of good, safe midrange EFI fuel controllers are the Power Commander V, and Zippers Thundermax. To which I could add more but won't. Contact jamie at Fuel Moto, a site sponsor for these.

Top of the line is the HD SE Race Tuner, and the TTS mastertune. These are not piggy-back systems but tools for manipulating your whole EFI and offer the most flexibility and control as you change your bike.

And a dyno-tune will always produce better results than a 'map download' can. It just depends on what is important enough to you to spend the required amount of money to make it happen.

Steve

 

I agree mostly with yso191, and yes I remember the days of carbs when we actually pulled the jets ourselves and drilled them out a bit and the only dyno we had was checking the plugs for the lean whitesh brownish color.

But those days are gone, and EFI does offer some performance improvements with complications. My bike (bought used) came with the exact same setup as yours only it also had the SE stage One dealer map download that you are questioning about. My bike runs good, but I personally want (but don't have funds for yet) the TTS MasterTune setup. It's in the price range of the piggybacks like PCommander etc. but it allows total software remap of the HD ECM on your own with a laptop plug in. There is no piggyback box or cables. The software from what I'm told is very user friendly but you can also take it in for a dyno if you want. I'm told most average users don't get but a small increase in power (from their own remap with TTS) after the dyno. You can even setup and store different setups for different scenarios. TTS used to make the old HD race tuner before a disagreement terminated that partnership.
Anyhow the ThunderMax is also an excellent package, but it is about twice the price. It is a totally new replacement ECM and it calibrates on the fly at any rpm range. Very nice, very expensive.
Hopefully your V&H big shots still have the Oxygen sensors hooked up in the standard bungs (mine do) since both TTS and ThunderMax will utilize these. The PCommander I believe does not use them.
Hope this helps your decision. I read up on all this awhile back and decided the TTS was what I wanted but I've spent too much at present on other needed items.
Good luck with it.

 

One way of looking at it is: what are your plans for the future ...?

If this is as far as you expect to go with motor performance improvements, get the download ... a one-time electron 'swap' and you're good to go ...

I believe V&H makes the fuelpack, so you might be inclined to think ... go with the same maker as your pipes ... but, have seen some negative feedback on that system ... comparable systems (as I am aware are the Dobeck TFI, and Ness system) ... they are 'piggy back' fuel injection systems that intercept the signal going to the injectors and (using potentiometers) 'adjust' the signal to add more fuel than the bike's stock electronic control module (ECM) dictates under the circumstances (RPM, Load) ....

The ThunderMax totally replaces the ECM and includes a wide-band oxygen sensor 'closed loop' feedback system that 'auto-tunes' the pre-selected program to optimize its performance (pre-selected by the owner to match the bike's air cleaner, exhaust, cams, heads, big bore, etc. characteristics) .... By utilizing a replacement ECM, it allows the user to set parameters such as engine idle speed, and redline RPM settings ....

TTS, and SERT/SEPST, as I understand them are similar; but, I believe utilize the stock ECM with an interface that allows the tuner/user to make changes to the programming parameters resident in the stock setup ... as I understand it, they basically allow same programming flexibility as the ThunderMax w/ Auto-Tune ... I believe recently these systems introduced V-Tune to allow for real-time feedback and 'auto-tuning' features, as well ....

Power Commander has come out with an auto-tune sytem ....

Dynojet has recently introduced a new system that looks very interesting ... 'Power Vision' ... there's a thread by FuelMoto that shows the interface and details the features ... https://www.hdforums.com/forum/elect...g-is-here.html

Cobra and Accel also have comprehensive electronic controllers/fuel management systems that I haven't seen much on on this forum ....

I posted on some of my TMAT experience with graphical output of my riding over the summer ... https://www.hdforums.com/forum/dyna-...-and-data.html

I picked up my ThunderMax from another forum member at a substantial discount over new retail pricing ... paid less than most of the other systems ... I am way pleased and have been a very happy customer ...!

Good luck with the decision ....

R/
'Chop

 

Excellent summation SURFOR Chop, including the parts I cut out, all of it.
But I got the same thing about the TTS as you back when I investigated it. The main reason that TTS is similar to SE is that TTS originally made SE for HD but later had a disagreement. In fact if you have the old version of the SE tuner you can get TTS for about $100 but I think you have to send them the old tuner for an upgrade flash.
The reason I like the TTS is one there is no piggyback to stuff into an already crowded compartment, and two it appears ( I don't own one yet) to be very user friendly and suggestive in creating your own maps. And it uses the map given it as a starting point to work in real time with the O2 sensors. For the price, and what I need it for (non racing) it suits me. I just need to save up some more funds and quit buyng other stuff.

 

I have the TTS, and like the interface and the capability for doing my own tuning runs (data-mapping). I don't have any overwhelming want to get it dyno tuned yet, but will after I install a different set of cams. I just need to find a shop with a dyno, that knows the TTS well.

 

i have the stage one download in my 07 street bob, ive had it about a year and i really like it, ( and im usually against dealership installed stuff). It was pretty expensive, i think around 150$. In 2007 i bought a powercommander and it was installed by my other local hd stealership, which they had put the wrong map in, long story short i hooked up my laptop and put the correct one in. Then 2 years later my bike just quit running, towed it to the stealership where they discovered the powercommander went bad, the tech told me they go bad all the time ( this hd dealer wasnt the first one who is a powercommander dealer ) I am in no way a expert but having an extra "box or module" on my bike is just one more thing that can go wrong and I'm not saying powercommanders are junk but I'm not going to be trying any more of them. With the download i got around 3-4 mpg better and I noticed more power and a wayyyy smoother running bike, just my 2 cents.

 

heads up Harley will NOT WARRENTY anything that goes wrong with you entire motor or electronic fuel injection system if they plug it in and find you had anything aftermarket power commander ect. manipulating the air fuel mixtures. Use Harley download or race tuner or if you want a 115 HP bike that will last 100k miles you bought the wrong brand

33 years and 13 Harleys 700k + miles in the saddle beleive me

 

One thing that I feel is often overlooked is the availability of techs who are familiar with XYZ brand. If you do any travelling outside of your area and you have runability issues with you bike, what are the chances that you'll be able to find a tech who is fluent in the operation of an aftermarket tuner?

All Harley techs are trained in the usage of the Pro Tuners and as such would hopefully be able to have a better chance at solving your issues and getting you back on the road quickly. Sure the shop rates of the "stealerships" may be higher than smaller shops selling aftermarket stuff, but if I can have my bike setup correctly from the get go then I'd happily pay a little more off the bat to save the headaches later.

Just my 2 cents.

 

I have the TTS as well best thing is you can keep stock map and reload it if selling and also you can tune any other mod you do over the life of the bike, money well spent in my view, PS if I can work it out anyone can,