Tuner or not...
Road Warrior
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,360
Likes: 4
If you are looking for performance, a full system without a tuner will disappoint you. I think the download is a waste of $$$ as just about everyone is dissatisfied with it in the end and move onto something more sophisticated. Once they do that they wonder why the heck did they throw good all that good money after bad.
The bike will run safe but you may not be happy with throttle response or power. You should not be aggressively riding WOT for long.
At the risk of oversimplifying, the O2 sensors will adjust cruising to within stock specs (optimum emissions not optimum performance). Otherwise the ECU guesses at what fuel the open loop areas need based on rpm, MAP and a VE table that characterizes the engines air pump efficiency. With changes to air filter and exhaust this VE table characterization is way off, especially at higher RPMs. So in closed loop the ECU will adjust back to stock AF, but it is a big adjustment and it won't be all that happy. The ECU will use what it learned from closed loop to adjust open loop, but the effects on the VE is not linear and the adjustments not as effective.
A tool like TTS gives you the tools you need to recalibrate the VEs such that the ECU will need to make fewer adjustments, and a happy ECU makes for a better running bike. In fact simply tuning the bike will give you more performance than any exhaust or intake changes.
The use of Broadband sensors for more efficiency is pure BS for the street, although that is another way to recalibrate the VEs.
So, ride the bike, won't hurt nothing. You may not like the ride, and if you are looking for performance you are shooting yourself in the foot. Nothing wrong for looking for style or sound an just riding, however.
If you find the bike running poorly, add some baffles as that will help you out.
The bike will run safe but you may not be happy with throttle response or power. You should not be aggressively riding WOT for long.
At the risk of oversimplifying, the O2 sensors will adjust cruising to within stock specs (optimum emissions not optimum performance). Otherwise the ECU guesses at what fuel the open loop areas need based on rpm, MAP and a VE table that characterizes the engines air pump efficiency. With changes to air filter and exhaust this VE table characterization is way off, especially at higher RPMs. So in closed loop the ECU will adjust back to stock AF, but it is a big adjustment and it won't be all that happy. The ECU will use what it learned from closed loop to adjust open loop, but the effects on the VE is not linear and the adjustments not as effective.
A tool like TTS gives you the tools you need to recalibrate the VEs such that the ECU will need to make fewer adjustments, and a happy ECU makes for a better running bike. In fact simply tuning the bike will give you more performance than any exhaust or intake changes.
The use of Broadband sensors for more efficiency is pure BS for the street, although that is another way to recalibrate the VEs.
So, ride the bike, won't hurt nothing. You may not like the ride, and if you are looking for performance you are shooting yourself in the foot. Nothing wrong for looking for style or sound an just riding, however.
If you find the bike running poorly, add some baffles as that will help you out.
Ultimate HDF Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 5,384
Likes: 12
From: Out on Deranged
Well since nobody mentioned this i can tell you that the download is not 100% a waste because,and since you already have it in there, it does push your rev cut off from 5500 to 6250.
The other (dis)/advantage is the parade mode your engine goes into if it gets too hot in traffic or a red light, or it just idles too long. Had I known i would have asked the dealer to uncheck that box when they did my D/L because that option didn't exist on my 08 dyna.
IMO ..seat of the pants I got more oomph out of her after getting my dynojet PC V and i was running rush slipons at the time, the throttle response and the power and torque of the bike becomes much improved with tuning,and that is true even if it will run fine without. But if I could undo that 300$ move I would now have gone with tts mastertune, it is more complex and its a learning process,but there are no extraneous parts added to the bike. there are many different tuners out there, its just a matter of finding what is right for you.
From what I gather stay away from sert and the V&H fuel pak, and good luck + ride safe!!
The other (dis)/advantage is the parade mode your engine goes into if it gets too hot in traffic or a red light, or it just idles too long. Had I known i would have asked the dealer to uncheck that box when they did my D/L because that option didn't exist on my 08 dyna.
IMO ..seat of the pants I got more oomph out of her after getting my dynojet PC V and i was running rush slipons at the time, the throttle response and the power and torque of the bike becomes much improved with tuning,and that is true even if it will run fine without. But if I could undo that 300$ move I would now have gone with tts mastertune, it is more complex and its a learning process,but there are no extraneous parts added to the bike. there are many different tuners out there, its just a matter of finding what is right for you.
From what I gather stay away from sert and the V&H fuel pak, and good luck + ride safe!!
Road Master
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,164
Likes: 401
From: Port Coquitlam B.C.
I read all these tuner threads with great interest. I have the download and I think my bike runs great. I can't stop thinking most of the posts saying the tuner makes the bike run better really means they give the bike more power. I went through the more power thing in my 20's when I cammed up a 69 Mustang. Yes it had way more power at WOT but other than that it ran like crap. I'm wondering if these tuners are the same thing.
There was a post in the touring section a few months ago where a guy traded in his bike on a new one. He took of all his fuel management stuff before he rode it to the dealership the day of the trade. His comments were he was amazed at how smooth the bike ran and what a pleasure it was to ride, way better than with the power adders on.
Just an observation, I could be way off.
There was a post in the touring section a few months ago where a guy traded in his bike on a new one. He took of all his fuel management stuff before he rode it to the dealership the day of the trade. His comments were he was amazed at how smooth the bike ran and what a pleasure it was to ride, way better than with the power adders on.
Just an observation, I could be way off.
Thread Starter
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Cruiser
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 209
Likes: 0
From: Upstate NY
I don't ride at WOT . Mainly just want a good running bike. Have been happy with how my bike ran with just slip ons and remap. Guess what I wanted to know was if remap was sufficient with my exhaust change. I'll ride it and make a decision. Thanks.
Road Warrior
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,739
Likes: 10
From: Suffolk, England
You rarely get two people to agree on this topic because no two person's needs from a bike are the same. Here are some of the types that mess with their bikes:
1. Someone who wants a lot of noise plus shiny different pipes and a new air cleaner cover. Willing to spend $500-1000 to achieve this and don't know or care that the bike now runs worse.
2. Someone who just wants the bike to run a bit cooler and smoother. Happy to fit some Xieds and call it good.
3. Someone that wants the bike to have some more power, generally run better and not over-heat. Researches what pipes work well and finds a good A/C, then gets the fuel sorted with a tuner like a PCV, SEPST, etc.
4. Someone wringing the most out their bike at a known risk of reduced engine life and MPG. Fits the best 2-1 race exhaust, high flow A/C, big CC pistons, head work, cams, etc.
5. Lots of shades of grey between and outside all the above.
1. Someone who wants a lot of noise plus shiny different pipes and a new air cleaner cover. Willing to spend $500-1000 to achieve this and don't know or care that the bike now runs worse.
2. Someone who just wants the bike to run a bit cooler and smoother. Happy to fit some Xieds and call it good.
3. Someone that wants the bike to have some more power, generally run better and not over-heat. Researches what pipes work well and finds a good A/C, then gets the fuel sorted with a tuner like a PCV, SEPST, etc.
4. Someone wringing the most out their bike at a known risk of reduced engine life and MPG. Fits the best 2-1 race exhaust, high flow A/C, big CC pistons, head work, cams, etc.
5. Lots of shades of grey between and outside all the above.
Club Member
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 753
Likes: 0
From: Yakima, WA
Part of the problem is that these come from the factory running right on the border of too lean because of emmission requirements. A richer Air/Fuel ratio = a cooler running bike with more power. This can only be accomplished with a remap or some form of fuel management.
One would think that all 96" motors are the same and a canned map is just great, but this is not so. They will run acceptably, but I was even surprised to see how different my two cylinders are from each other! One size does not fit all - it just gets close.
Yes if you are just putting down the road you are good to go. As for me, I could not stand the pinging and sluggishness when I went to pass someone. Now my bike runs perfectly - like it should. The difference between a stock map and a dyno-tune done by a competent operator is remarkable.
Steve
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,250
Likes: 36
From: Montana
I run an auto tune set up and it made a big difference in how the bike runs. A remap is ok but a tuner is better. I found the tuner made a big difference in how hot the bike runs as well as better torque, hp and the mileage is still decent.
Road Warrior
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,360
Likes: 4
Oh and tuning is more about drivability, e.g. instant throttle response, smooth power delivery at any rpm or throttle position, great road manners. WOT power is easy to set up for, lots of relatively inexpensive ways to get there. Drivability is a subjective thing only you can evaluate, so you will get a broad range of good enough opinions here.
Last edited by ColdCase; Jan 4, 2012 at 01:06 PM.
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Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,026
Likes: 474
I go to two long time Indy shops. Both guys tell me that the down loads are set up for the way most people ride. These guys sing their praises of how dependable running the download is over the tunners. Both showed me boxes of toasted tunners that went bad. Seem like most were the V&H Power Comander type. Their opinion was most tunners are not dependable. Both guys ride stage 1 bikes themselves if anybody is wondering.
The only tunner both endorsed is TTS Master-Tune. Said its the way to go if your planning going into the motor with future mods. But on a stage one motor it isn't worth spending that amount of money on.
Being who I am will more than likely save up and buy the Master Tune and dig into the motor next winter. Until then I do my home work. My bike is my baby, I want only the best for my baby.
The only tunner both endorsed is TTS Master-Tune. Said its the way to go if your planning going into the motor with future mods. But on a stage one motor it isn't worth spending that amount of money on.
Being who I am will more than likely save up and buy the Master Tune and dig into the motor next winter. Until then I do my home work. My bike is my baby, I want only the best for my baby.
Last edited by Chicago Ken; Jan 4, 2012 at 07:34 PM.