Tuner or not...
Road Warrior
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,335
Likes: 3
From: Ca.
I love these kinds of threads
You rarely get two people to agree on this topic because no two person's needs from a bike are the same. Here are some of the types that mess with their bikes:
1. Someone who wants a lot of noise plus shiny different pipes and a new air cleaner cover. Willing to spend $500-1000 to achieve this and don't know or care that the bike now runs worse.
2. Someone who just wants the bike to run a bit cooler and smoother. Happy to fit some Xieds and call it good.
3. Someone that wants the bike to have some more power, generally run better and not over-heat. Researches what pipes work well and finds a good A/C, then gets the fuel sorted with a tuner like a PCV, SEPST, etc.
4. Someone wringing the most out their bike at a known risk of reduced engine life and MPG. Fits the best 2-1 race exhaust, high flow A/C, big CC pistons, head work, cams, etc.
5. Lots of shades of grey between and outside all the above.
1. Someone who wants a lot of noise plus shiny different pipes and a new air cleaner cover. Willing to spend $500-1000 to achieve this and don't know or care that the bike now runs worse.
2. Someone who just wants the bike to run a bit cooler and smoother. Happy to fit some Xieds and call it good.
3. Someone that wants the bike to have some more power, generally run better and not over-heat. Researches what pipes work well and finds a good A/C, then gets the fuel sorted with a tuner like a PCV, SEPST, etc.
4. Someone wringing the most out their bike at a known risk of reduced engine life and MPG. Fits the best 2-1 race exhaust, high flow A/C, big CC pistons, head work, cams, etc.
5. Lots of shades of grey between and outside all the above.
I fall into your catagory #3 above, I think.
That's just about what I want and here's what I'm about to do:
Full bassani system next week and will do just the K&N filter with stock cover, power commander V, and then have it tuned.
I found it real interesting you identified what I was looking for AND accomplishable by what I was going to do to get it. Bassani staff told me the exact same thing.
Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,026
Likes: 474
At this point I don't know what to do. After reading most of the threads. Already spent enough money for the winter on powder and paint.
I'm going to leave the motor alone for now. cheaper that way. It isn't like I can ride it now anyway.
I'm going to leave the motor alone for now. cheaper that way. It isn't like I can ride it now anyway.
Elite HDF Member
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,881
Likes: 3
From: Pennslytucky
a lot of very knowledgeable guys talk about the dangers of not adding a tuner/download, etc. when you change pipes and air cleaners but i have yet to see anyone post the bad results of not adding a tuner. anyone know of a thread that covers this? from what i have learned so far it seems that the ecu can't adjust the a/f mixture enough to compensate for the changes. i'm sure someone can post the EXACT limits that are set up in the factory ecu's can't they? i have seen ads and videos of companies that sell tuners explaining why you need their product for your bike.
i guess my big question is : what are the limits of the factory ecu's and why are they so narrow?
i guess my big question is : what are the limits of the factory ecu's and why are they so narrow?
Last edited by jo_mama; Jan 4, 2012 at 10:34 PM.
Tourer
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 417
Likes: 0
From: Louisiana
a lot of very knowledgeable guys talk about the dangers of not adding a tuner/download, etc. when you change pipes and air cleaners but i have yet to see anyone post the bad results of not adding a tuner. anyone know of a thread that covers this? from what i have learned so far it seems that the ecu can't adjust the a/f mixture enough to compensate for the changes. i'm sure someone can post the EXACT limits that are set up in the factory ecu's can't they? i have seen ads and videos of companies that sell tuners explaining why you need their product for your bike.
i guess my big question is : what are the limits of the factory ecu's and why are they so narrow?
i guess my big question is : what are the limits of the factory ecu's and why are they so narrow?
+1 sir ... would like to hear this myself
Road Warrior
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,739
Likes: 10
From: Suffolk, England
I go to two long time Indy shops. Both guys tell me that the down loads are set up for the way most people ride. These guys sing their praises of how dependable running the download is over the tunners. Both showed me boxes of toasted tunners that went bad. Seem like most were the V&H Power Comander type. Their opinion was most tunners are not dependable. Both guys ride stage 1 bikes themselves if anybody is wondering.
The only tunner both endorsed is TTS Master-Tune. Said its the way to go if your planning going into the motor with future mods. But on a stage one motor it isn't worth spending that amount of money on.
The only tunner both endorsed is TTS Master-Tune. Said its the way to go if your planning going into the motor with future mods. But on a stage one motor it isn't worth spending that amount of money on.
As for "Their opinion was most tunners are not dependable"...both the SEPST and TTS leave nothing on the bike to go wrong, so they won't have been in the box of broken tuners.
Personally I don't think there's much to choose between the TTS and SEPST in terms of results. Though the TTS has better documentation and a nicer interface. Downside of the TTS being that if you want a shop to do you a tune you'll find fewer places familiar with it.
As for the effects of running a bike with stage-1 hardware and no tuner...Here's dyno of a 2010 Dyna with SE slip-ons and SE A/C and no tuner, produced in September:
General target AFR is the red dotted line. You can see that up to about 4000rpm the AFR is held by the ECU to stoic and below. But above 4000rpm (when into open loop mode and the O2 sensors are no longer in use) the increased flow means that the AFR has gone very lean. Run like that for a while and you'll ruin your engine, never mind all the performance you are losing out on.
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,250
Likes: 36
From: Montana
thanks for the dyno post foxster. I know the facts and basically the whys but its really nice to see someone back up the why with something we can all see and is simple to understand. Interesting post OP and thanks all for the opinions expressed.
One poster talks about the smoothness of the stock efi. I too noticed how smooth the bike ran stock but in all fairness the motor mounts are brand spanking new etc. The good news is this is still the smoothest running bike Ive ever had . (7 carbed bikes before), even with the new tuner. Ran flawless from 7000 ft. down to sea level and back. That part of EFI I really enjoy. I miss the mechanical-ness of the older bikes.
One poster talks about the smoothness of the stock efi. I too noticed how smooth the bike ran stock but in all fairness the motor mounts are brand spanking new etc. The good news is this is still the smoothest running bike Ive ever had . (7 carbed bikes before), even with the new tuner. Ran flawless from 7000 ft. down to sea level and back. That part of EFI I really enjoy. I miss the mechanical-ness of the older bikes.
Last edited by missedem; Jan 5, 2012 at 03:21 AM. Reason: decided to be gabby
Cruiser
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 120
Likes: 0
From: Sydney, Australia
Some posters have said not to use the SERT. Can anyone provide a valid reason why? Is it just that some others give even better performance as opposed to reliability or other reasons?
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Road Warrior
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,360
Likes: 4
There are several tuning products that provide excellent results in the right hands and some posters have their preferences…. some may be fan boys… some may be working for one vendor or another... some believe everything they read in the marketing literature.
Road Master
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,164
Likes: 401
From: Port Coquitlam B.C.
a lot of very knowledgeable guys talk about the dangers of not adding a tuner/download, etc. when you change pipes and air cleaners but i have yet to see anyone post the bad results of not adding a tuner. anyone know of a thread that covers this? from what i have learned so far it seems that the ecu can't adjust the a/f mixture enough to compensate for the changes. i'm sure someone can post the EXACT limits that are set up in the factory ecu's can't they? i have seen ads and videos of companies that sell tuners explaining why you need their product for your bike.
i guess my big question is : what are the limits of the factory ecu's and why are they so narrow?
i guess my big question is : what are the limits of the factory ecu's and why are they so narrow?