Proof you don't need a tuner
Road Warrior
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,739
Likes: 10
From: Suffolk, England
Don't forget there are (at least) two different types of people fitting stage-1 hardware...
1. Those out to improve the performance and reduce the engine temp of their bike. As a bonus they may get a bike that looks and sounds better to them.
2. Those who don't care about the performance as long as the bike is louder and looks cute.
I think some of the people arguing here fall into different groups and so end up comparing apples and oranges.
There are also those with experience of carb and pre-Delphi ('07) Harleys, where it was a BAD idea to not adjust the fuel if you opened up the exhaust and A/C. Much of that experience isn't relevant any more.
And then there are the dealers who make their money selling stuff to people that know no better. The buyers then regurgitating their information as gospel.
1. Those out to improve the performance and reduce the engine temp of their bike. As a bonus they may get a bike that looks and sounds better to them.
2. Those who don't care about the performance as long as the bike is louder and looks cute.
I think some of the people arguing here fall into different groups and so end up comparing apples and oranges.
There are also those with experience of carb and pre-Delphi ('07) Harleys, where it was a BAD idea to not adjust the fuel if you opened up the exhaust and A/C. Much of that experience isn't relevant any more.
And then there are the dealers who make their money selling stuff to people that know no better. The buyers then regurgitating their information as gospel.
Last edited by Foxster; Mar 6, 2012 at 03:43 PM.
Advanced
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
From: California
"Proof"???? What proof have you presented? None, only opinions from magazines and your independant mechanic (who is just one individual, and his opinion is subjective as well, not scientific). The only way to truely prove your statement either correct or incorrect would be to take two of the exact same bikes off of the factory assembly line, do the full Stage 1 on one bike, and just intake and exhaust on the other, and run them at the track until one of them blew up or quit running (due to something related to the intake, exhaust, heat, or burnt valves) and them make a determination.
Tourer
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 334
Likes: 3
From: Romeo, MI
I can't understand why the MoCo doesn't just add a mass air flow sensor to the mix. That would virtually eliminate the open loop AFR problems for minor changes like pipes and air cleaners, most cam swaps, etc.
Road Warrior
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,739
Likes: 10
From: Suffolk, England
If you guys want some interesting reading on the effect of adding air cleaners, exhausts and other stuff along with the resulting dyno charts AND what some rather knowledgeable people think about the need for retuning have a look here: http://www.robsdyno.com/article_archive.html.
Intermediate
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 47
Likes: 0
From: Homewood, AL
Wanna chime in and see what everyone opinion is I got from my dealer. I have a 2012 Blackline, 103ci, and might be able to get some V&H short shots from a buddy cheap and want a stage 1 A/c. I live where there are 2 dealers in my city limits and 2 others about an hour away. I have not called the other 2 yet, but of the local ones, one said I just need to do the Stage 1 download, 150 +35 labor. Other said I have to get a tune and dyno due to the full exhaust change, even if I don't go with the A/c, $460 + 350 dyno. I am gonna call 2 more shops to get there opinion but tell me if dealerships are not interested in just saying bs to get more money, why wouldn't they all just give the same price???????
Car dealerships all pretty much have a standard price on stuff like this, tune/service fees, go to one GM dealer and it will be the same price as another down the road, just your opinion of who you like best. But when it comes to HD dealers they will rip your *** so far apart they want to check your tonsils for loose change.
Car dealerships all pretty much have a standard price on stuff like this, tune/service fees, go to one GM dealer and it will be the same price as another down the road, just your opinion of who you like best. But when it comes to HD dealers they will rip your *** so far apart they want to check your tonsils for loose change.
Road Captain
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 547
Likes: 2
From: Oregon
If you guys want some interesting reading on the effect of adding air cleaners, exhausts and other stuff along with the resulting dyno charts AND what some rather knowledgeable people think about the need for retuning have a look here: http://www.robsdyno.com/article_archive.html.
Here's a quote from one of the AIM articles listed on Robs Dyno site:
"Of course, the ECM will keep the air/fuel ratio at the EPA- mandated 14.7:1 (14.7
parts air to one part fuel), so the engine will run just as it did
before the air cleaner installation...."
I don't think anyone would argue that these bikes don't run lean from the factory.
My experience with 2 different bikes showed the a/f ratio didn't change with adding just slip-on mufflers. I verified this with a baseline dyno including the a/f readings.
Once I added a high flow a/c I also installed a "fueler". V&H FuelPak in the first bike and now a TTS Master tune in my softail.
I considered the results well worth the expense.
Road Warrior
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,739
Likes: 10
From: Suffolk, England
Wanna chime in and see what everyone opinion is I got from my dealer. I have a 2012 Blackline, 103ci, and might be able to get some V&H short shots from a buddy cheap and want a stage 1 A/c. I live where there are 2 dealers in my city limits and 2 others about an hour away. I have not called the other 2 yet, but of the local ones, one said I just need to do the Stage 1 download, 150 +35 labor. Other said I have to get a tune and dyno due to the full exhaust change, even if I don't go with the A/c, $460 + 350 dyno. I am gonna call 2 more shops to get there opinion but tell me if dealerships are not interested in just saying bs to get more money, why wouldn't they all just give the same price???????
Car dealerships all pretty much have a standard price on stuff like this, tune/service fees, go to one GM dealer and it will be the same price as another down the road, just your opinion of who you like best. But when it comes to HD dealers they will rip your *** so far apart they want to check your tonsils for loose change.
Car dealerships all pretty much have a standard price on stuff like this, tune/service fees, go to one GM dealer and it will be the same price as another down the road, just your opinion of who you like best. But when it comes to HD dealers they will rip your *** so far apart they want to check your tonsils for loose change.
Some are happy with a flashy air cleaner and noisy pipes and don't touch the fueling and are OK with it. Some just don't want it to cook and put some Xieds on. Some want it to run OK but don't care if the tune is accurate and put a FuelPak on. Some want a half-decent tuner their local shop can work on and buy a Power Commander. Some want a good tune on their bike to match the hardware and buy a SEPST, TTS or Power Vision.
What's best for you? No idea - pays your money and takes your pick.
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Intermediate
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 47
Likes: 0
From: Homewood, AL
Foxster you are right, all depends on what kind of dime and care people want to put in there bikes. I traded my 95 sporty in on this bike, i did everything to that bike, mainly because it was easy and cheap lol. But I also found out the dealer I purchased the FXS from is pretty much one of the only dealers in my state with a dyno and that is why they want me to do the tuner. Spoke with other HD dealers in the state and all said, like we both stated, depends on what I want. A stage 1 download will work find doing a full exhaust and stage 1 a/c but a tuner would make it run even better, but i don't "HAVE TO HAVE IT". As stated by the dealership with they dyno, they told me no matter what i did I needed the $800 solution, where as the $200 would be fine for what I want right now. That is the aggravating part of HD and just dealing with them.
So for me going to get my pipes and a/c, do the download and later down the road get me a tuner when I have the cash and time.
So for me going to get my pipes and a/c, do the download and later down the road get me a tuner when I have the cash and time.
Road Warrior
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,739
Likes: 10
From: Suffolk, England
Foxster you are right, all depends on what kind of dime and care people want to put in there bikes. I traded my 95 sporty in on this bike, i did everything to that bike, mainly because it was easy and cheap lol. But I also found out the dealer I purchased the FXS from is pretty much one of the only dealers in my state with a dyno and that is why they want me to do the tuner. Spoke with other HD dealers in the state and all said, like we both stated, depends on what I want. A stage 1 download will work find doing a full exhaust and stage 1 a/c but a tuner would make it run even better, but i don't "HAVE TO HAVE IT". As stated by the dealership with they dyno, they told me no matter what i did I needed the $800 solution, where as the $200 would be fine for what I want right now. That is the aggravating part of HD and just dealing with them.
So for me going to get my pipes and a/c, do the download and later down the road get me a tuner when I have the cash and time.
So for me going to get my pipes and a/c, do the download and later down the road get me a tuner when I have the cash and time.
If you want a cheap and cheerful solution to tide you over then buy some Xieds.