OddBall Dyno Sheet
Tourer
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 420
Likes: 5
From: Kingsport, TN
Both of these pipes meet your requirements and make big power. Check 'em out.
I have run the Pro Streets for 12 years with multiple builds and can assure you that they are right up there with the best, delivering a strong, broad torque curve free of tuning dips and make excellent HP from 4-6k. They are among the lightest pipes available, easy to mount, look and sound badass IMO, are reasonably priced, and always deliver great performance on a hot street build.
I have run the Pro Streets for 12 years with multiple builds and can assure you that they are right up there with the best, delivering a strong, broad torque curve free of tuning dips and make excellent HP from 4-6k. They are among the lightest pipes available, easy to mount, look and sound badass IMO, are reasonably priced, and always deliver great performance on a hot street build.
Last edited by dynawg1; Apr 1, 2015 at 07:32 PM.
Thread Starter
|
Intermediate
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 47
Likes: 0
From: Cocoa Beach, FL
Both of these pipes meet your requirements and make big power. Check 'em out.
I have run the Pro Streets for 12 years with multiple builds and can assure you that they are right up there with the best, delivering a strong, broad torque curve free of tuning dips and make excellent HP from 4-6k. They are among the lightest pipes available, easy to mount, look and sound badass IMO, are reasonably priced, and always deliver great performance on a hot street build.
I have run the Pro Streets for 12 years with multiple builds and can assure you that they are right up there with the best, delivering a strong, broad torque curve free of tuning dips and make excellent HP from 4-6k. They are among the lightest pipes available, easy to mount, look and sound badass IMO, are reasonably priced, and always deliver great performance on a hot street build.
HDF Community Team
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 12,779
Likes: 2,609
From: san antonio
Not convinced that "it's either the exhaust or throttle body". I know the throttle body is not the source of the problem and while the exhaust is a contributing factor, I am not convinced that one or both of those two components are responsible for the poor performance.
I went back and read your OP wherein you said the heads were S&S pro-stock heads. S&S offers super stock heads in 79cc, 89cc and 91cc configurations but IIRC, don't offer a "pro-stock" head; could be wrong. However for clarity, can you provide the S&S part number for the heads?
Back in #8 gtrracer brought up two points which are the first places to look when a new build tune misses the TQ/HP mark by as wide a margin as the OPs; sumping and compression. Those two should be checked first before the OP starts throwing parts at such a poor performing build. Sure, exhaust and cam choice are not the best but 89HP from a 106" motor tells me something else is going on; changing cams and/or exhaust is not going to make up for the 20+HP that is still in the dyno room.
Check compression and drain the sump; basic stuff.
Tourer
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 420
Likes: 5
From: Kingsport, TN
With the Pro Streets, if your motor does not give you the expected or better HP, look elsewhere, it's not the pipes. If you get a torque dip on the bottom initially, a good tuner will be able to tune that out, even if your cams are over-exhausting. Pro Streets are known for their ability to eliminate the dip even on cams that are infamous for over-exhausting, like the S&S 585.
Thread Starter
|
Intermediate
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 47
Likes: 0
From: Cocoa Beach, FL
Not convinced that "it's either the exhaust or throttle body". I know the throttle body is not the source of the problem and while the exhaust is a contributing factor, I am not convinced that one or both of those two components are responsible for the poor performance.
I went back and read your OP wherein you said the heads were S&S pro-stock heads. S&S offers super stock heads in 79cc, 89cc and 91cc configurations but IIRC, don't offer a "pro-stock" head; could be wrong. However for clarity, can you provide the S&S part number for the heads?
Back in #8 gtrracer brought up two points which are the first places to look when a new build tune misses the TQ/HP mark by as wide a margin as the OPs; sumping and compression. Those two should be checked first before the OP starts throwing parts at such a poor performing build. Sure, exhaust and cam choice are not the best but 89HP from a 106" motor tells me something else is going on; changing cams and/or exhaust is not going to make up for the 20+HP that is still in the dyno room.
Check compression and drain the sump; basic stuff.
I went back and read your OP wherein you said the heads were S&S pro-stock heads. S&S offers super stock heads in 79cc, 89cc and 91cc configurations but IIRC, don't offer a "pro-stock" head; could be wrong. However for clarity, can you provide the S&S part number for the heads?
Back in #8 gtrracer brought up two points which are the first places to look when a new build tune misses the TQ/HP mark by as wide a margin as the OPs; sumping and compression. Those two should be checked first before the OP starts throwing parts at such a poor performing build. Sure, exhaust and cam choice are not the best but 89HP from a 106" motor tells me something else is going on; changing cams and/or exhaust is not going to make up for the 20+HP that is still in the dyno room.
Check compression and drain the sump; basic stuff.
How do I go about checking to see if the engine is sumping? Is there a procedure, or any instructions I can go about finding? Before I read this post (the night before) I went ahead and ordered the MR103 cams from S&S. I'll sell the 583's on Ebay hopefully. I've also got a set of the Bassani's coming. The original builder dyno'd the bike with a set of stock Softail piper, without the muffler, and picked up 7 horse over the V&H BR's. So, that should help some. I'll install the 103's myself when they come in, along with the pipes, and get it back over for another dyno run.
Thanks for the information, if you could point me in the right direction on how to check those issues out, I'd appreciate it.
HDF Community Team
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 12,779
Likes: 2,609
From: san antonio
Sir, you're correct, the heads are S&S Super Stock heads, 89cc, part #106-4270.
How do I go about checking to see if the engine is sumping? Is there a procedure, or any instructions I can go about finding? Before I read this post (the night before) I went ahead and ordered the MR103 cams from S&S. I'll sell the 583's on Ebay hopefully. I've also got a set of the Bassani's coming. The original builder dyno'd the bike with a set of stock Softail piper, without the muffler, and picked up 7 horse over the V&H BR's. So, that should help some. I'll install the 103's myself when they come in, along with the pipes, and get it back over for another dyno run.
Thanks for the information, if you could point me in the right direction on how to check those issues out, I'd appreciate it.
How do I go about checking to see if the engine is sumping? Is there a procedure, or any instructions I can go about finding? Before I read this post (the night before) I went ahead and ordered the MR103 cams from S&S. I'll sell the 583's on Ebay hopefully. I've also got a set of the Bassani's coming. The original builder dyno'd the bike with a set of stock Softail piper, without the muffler, and picked up 7 horse over the V&H BR's. So, that should help some. I'll install the 103's myself when they come in, along with the pipes, and get it back over for another dyno run.
Thanks for the information, if you could point me in the right direction on how to check those issues out, I'd appreciate it.
Your compression will drop with the MR103 cams; later intake close of 33* compared to the intake close of 18* with the 583.
Sumping is checked by riding the bike to warm it up and then opening the plug at the bottom of the crank case; it is located on the right (brake) half of the case. It is tapered pipe plug and should be removed and installed with care; over tightening when replacing the plug has cracked cases. If 4-6 ounces of oil drains out, no sumping but if much more than that, she is sumping. I have seen more than a quart come out. Sumping is caused by a poor seal between the oil pump scavenge "neck" and the scavenge port in the case, i.e., wrong o-ring, pinched o-ring, no o-ring or just a poor fit. I install an o-ring normally used on the oil drain plug on the pump neck behind the scavenge port o-ring to insure a good, tight fit at the scavenge port.
I would expect the motor to run well with the 583s, much better than the dyno sheet shows. So two things to check; compression and sumping. JMHO.
Thread Starter
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Intermediate
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 47
Likes: 0
From: Cocoa Beach, FL
Check compression with a compression tester; Sears sells one that is accurate and not expensive. You should have plenty of compression according to my calculator. I suspect it will be close to 200psi, front and rear. That assumes that cams have been installed properly. Inner cam gears could be off a tooth and the motor would still start and run; however, there will be a difference between front and rear of about 15-20psi.
Your compression will drop with the MR103 cams; later intake close of 33* compared to the intake close of 18* with the 583.
Sumping is checked by riding the bike to warm it up and then opening the plug at the bottom of the crank case; it is located on the right (brake) half of the case. It is tapered pipe plug and should be removed and installed with care; over tightening when replacing the plug has cracked cases. If 4-6 ounces of oil drains out, no sumping but if much more than that, she is sumping. I have seen more than a quart come out. Sumping is caused by a poor seal between the oil pump scavenge "neck" and the scavenge port in the case, i.e., wrong o-ring, pinched o-ring, no o-ring or just a poor fit. I install an o-ring normally used on the oil drain plug on the pump neck behind the scavenge port o-ring to insure a good, tight fit at the scavenge port.
I would expect the motor to run well with the 583s, much better than the dyno sheet shows. So two things to check; compression and sumping. JMHO.
Your compression will drop with the MR103 cams; later intake close of 33* compared to the intake close of 18* with the 583.
Sumping is checked by riding the bike to warm it up and then opening the plug at the bottom of the crank case; it is located on the right (brake) half of the case. It is tapered pipe plug and should be removed and installed with care; over tightening when replacing the plug has cracked cases. If 4-6 ounces of oil drains out, no sumping but if much more than that, she is sumping. I have seen more than a quart come out. Sumping is caused by a poor seal between the oil pump scavenge "neck" and the scavenge port in the case, i.e., wrong o-ring, pinched o-ring, no o-ring or just a poor fit. I install an o-ring normally used on the oil drain plug on the pump neck behind the scavenge port o-ring to insure a good, tight fit at the scavenge port.
I would expect the motor to run well with the 583s, much better than the dyno sheet shows. So two things to check; compression and sumping. JMHO.
I'm halfway there. I warmed up the bike as you said, came back and pulled that plug, I got just about 4 ounces out. I assume that rules out sumping. What I'm concerned about now is the inner cam gears as you just said. When I picked up the bike the first time and started putting the break-in miles on it, I could here the cams "ticking" fairly loud. Now, as the RPM increases, that loud ticking turns into a high pitched squealing or whirring sound. I mentioned it to the builder, he said he didn't hear it, but it's def there. It gets worse as RPM's increase. Could this be the problem? I'm going to change the cams myself on Tuesday, can I check the inner gears as well, or does that require a bearing puller? (I don't have one).
I'll pick up the compression tester and test the compression tomorrow and post the results. Thanks again for the advice.
Tourer
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 420
Likes: 5
From: Kingsport, TN
Sounds like bad lifters to me. Before you pull the camchest apart, remove the lifters and check the surface of the lifter rollers for scuffing and also check the movement of the rollers under firm finger pressure. You can see the cam lobes through the lifter bores with a flashlight & mirror or, better, with a remote bore camera.
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HDF Community Team
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 12,779
Likes: 2,609
From: san antonio
DJL,
I'm halfway there. I warmed up the bike as you said, came back and pulled that plug, I got just about 4 ounces out. I assume that rules out sumping. What I'm concerned about now is the inner cam gears as you just said. When I picked up the bike the first time and started putting the break-in miles on it, I could here the cams "ticking" fairly loud. Now, as the RPM increases, that loud ticking turns into a high pitched squealing or whirring sound. I mentioned it to the builder, he said he didn't hear it, but it's def there. It gets worse as RPM's increase. Could this be the problem? I'm going to change the cams myself on Tuesday, can I check the inner gears as well, or does that require a bearing puller? (I don't have one).
I'll pick up the compression tester and test the compression tomorrow and post the results. Thanks again for the advice.
I'm halfway there. I warmed up the bike as you said, came back and pulled that plug, I got just about 4 ounces out. I assume that rules out sumping. What I'm concerned about now is the inner cam gears as you just said. When I picked up the bike the first time and started putting the break-in miles on it, I could here the cams "ticking" fairly loud. Now, as the RPM increases, that loud ticking turns into a high pitched squealing or whirring sound. I mentioned it to the builder, he said he didn't hear it, but it's def there. It gets worse as RPM's increase. Could this be the problem? I'm going to change the cams myself on Tuesday, can I check the inner gears as well, or does that require a bearing puller? (I don't have one).
I'll pick up the compression tester and test the compression tomorrow and post the results. Thanks again for the advice.
To check cam timing, no need to tear down anything; just check compression, hot or cold, doesn't matter. If cam timing is off a tooth, the bike will start and run but not well. If cam timing is off, there will be a 15-20psi difference in CCP between cylinders. If both are close, cams are in time. If not, time to dig into the cam chest and check cam timing.
Aside from the lifters as dynawg1 has suggested, I would look at the tensioner of course. I have seen them re-installed with the spring and check valve in the wrong order; see the attachment. The next thing I would check is the fitment of the outer cam journals in the cam plate bosses. If you are still running the OEM camplate, you have installed hi-performance cams, driven by gears, under higher than stock compression and valve train load with the outer cam journals running in the parent material of the cam plate. I have never cottoned to that approach; even the first OEM cam plates (1999) in TC88 motors ran the outer cam journals in bearings. I have seen excessive wear in situations similar to yours in less than 5000. Even if you find there is no excessive wear, I would upgrade the cam plate to the 25282-11 kit with plate and pump; outer cam journals ride in a billet plate with bronze bushings.
Also take a close look at the oil pump components and the face of the cam plate where the oil pump mounts.
Get all that done and we should be sneaking up on the problem.
Tourer
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 420
Likes: 5
From: Kingsport, TN
...If you are still running the OEM camplate, you have installed hi-performance cams, driven by gears, under higher than stock compression and valve train load with the outer cam journals running in the parent material of the cam plate. I have never cottoned to that approach; even the first OEM cam plates (1999) in TC88 motors ran the outer cam journals in bearings. I have seen excessive wear in situations similar to yours in less than 5000. Even if you find there is no excessive wear, would upgrade the cam plate...
Last edited by dynawg1; Apr 18, 2015 at 07:42 PM.