Feuling Pump / Cam Plate
Ultimate HDF Member
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,926
Likes: 138
From: NE Ohio
I guess that I'm the only one to ever feed into the internet hype / BS / marketing of (some of) the HD Aftermarket?? LMAO~at self!
Some quotes from fooling's website;
"eliminating wet sumping and oily air cleaners.",
"resulting in a quieter more powerful engine",
"Test results show a decrease of engine temperatures by as much as 35 degrees",
"Results also show an increase of 3 H.P. and 4 Ft. Lbs of T.Q to the rear wheel"...
I also figured that since fooling touts the parts as being billet, well billet has to be better... right??
Well I can now (after my expensive education) tell you, the OE Pumps / Plates are not as substandard / or problematic as the above claims would lead one to believe... and that fooling's advertising claims are misleading at best, in some cases, outright fabrication...
"The old adage "If it ain't broke don't fix it!" comes to mind"
Yea, I know... I won't get "fooled" again...
Some quotes from fooling's website;
"eliminating wet sumping and oily air cleaners.",
"resulting in a quieter more powerful engine",
"Test results show a decrease of engine temperatures by as much as 35 degrees",
"Results also show an increase of 3 H.P. and 4 Ft. Lbs of T.Q to the rear wheel"...
I also figured that since fooling touts the parts as being billet, well billet has to be better... right??
Well I can now (after my expensive education) tell you, the OE Pumps / Plates are not as substandard / or problematic as the above claims would lead one to believe... and that fooling's advertising claims are misleading at best, in some cases, outright fabrication...
"The old adage "If it ain't broke don't fix it!" comes to mind"
Yea, I know... I won't get "fooled" again...
Road Warrior
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,923
Likes: 587
From: Alorton, Illinois
IMO There is a place for non stock pumps in the performance world. Problem I see is guys are always talking about the pressure side and the improvement it can cause. When really the biggest advantage is the scavenge side. Maybe it is because there isn't a way to gauge that side like the pressure side. It is more work and time to see the difference of fluid in the sump.
I have used plenty of SE pumps with good results on bigger builds. I don't think more money needs to be spent unless a 3 stage is wanted, and this is only really helpful if the stock breathing from crank cavity to cam cavity is improved upon.
I have used plenty of SE pumps with good results on bigger builds. I don't think more money needs to be spent unless a 3 stage is wanted, and this is only really helpful if the stock breathing from crank cavity to cam cavity is improved upon.
Thread Starter
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Road Captain
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 566
Likes: 70
From: The Redneck Riviera
I was kinda surprised at some of the PMs regarding my Original Post.
Excerpts by a few noted Indys;
"We installed a few (fueling)... too many issues..."
"I've been seeing issues with fueling for years..."
"We have always used the HD pump/plates here, from 98" engines to 124" set-ups..."
"We use HD here, unless the customer really wants something else..."
Yea, it's only a few Indys with negative comments for fueling, but I don't see any Indys with their "pom poms out" for them either...
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 3,427
Likes: 164
From: Home
I was kinda surprised at some of the PMs regarding my Original Post.
Excerpts by a few noted Indys;
"We installed a few (fueling)... too many issues..."
"I've been seeing issues with fueling for years..."
"We have always used the HD pump/plates here, from 98" engines to 124" set-ups..."
"We use HD here, unless the customer really wants something else..."
Yea, it's only a few Indys with negative comments for fueling, but I don't see any Indys with their "pom poms out" for them either...
Excerpts by a few noted Indys;
"We installed a few (fueling)... too many issues..."
"I've been seeing issues with fueling for years..."
"We have always used the HD pump/plates here, from 98" engines to 124" set-ups..."
"We use HD here, unless the customer really wants something else..."
Yea, it's only a few Indys with negative comments for fueling, but I don't see any Indys with their "pom poms out" for them either...
Thread Starter
|
Road Captain
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 566
Likes: 70
From: The Redneck Riviera
IMO There is a place for non stock pumps in the performance world. Problem I see is guys are always talking about the pressure side and the improvement it can cause. When really the biggest advantage is the scavenge side. Maybe it is because there isn't a way to gauge that side like the pressure side. It is more work and time to see the difference of fluid in the sump.
I have used plenty of SE pumps with good results on bigger builds. I don't think more money needs to be spent unless a 3 stage is wanted, and this is only really helpful if the stock breathing from crank cavity to cam cavity is improved upon.
I have used plenty of SE pumps with good results on bigger builds. I don't think more money needs to be spent unless a 3 stage is wanted, and this is only really helpful if the stock breathing from crank cavity to cam cavity is improved upon.
I totally agree, the scavenge side is the biggest advantage, but any (scavenge ~ sumping) issues that I've seen / heard of with the OE Pumps seem to be related to the O-ring being improperly installed or shrunk / brittle?
Not being contrary with this as you have tons more direct experience with the TCs than I will ever have, and I would value more input.
How is the "stock breathing from crank cavity to cam cavity" improved upon???
Yea, the Thayer / S&S is definitely a better design, and (more importantly to me) they stand behind their products...
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 3,427
Likes: 164
From: Home
If that were true, then you wouldn't have quoted any part of it.
Then again, maybe you are just making the quotes up because I struck a nerve about your mechanic not returning the defective part at the first sign of trouble.
Then again, maybe you are just making the quotes up because I struck a nerve about your mechanic not returning the defective part at the first sign of trouble.
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Road Warrior
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,923
Likes: 587
From: Alorton, Illinois
The older style cases could use a reed valve. This could cause sumping because of the pressure differential between cam and crank cavities. Higher head pressure in the cam chest would bias the oil being removed from there more then the crank cavity. A duel stage scavenge isn't affect by this bias and the benefits of less pressure in the crank cavity can be taken advantage of. I have also seen one way valves installed in newer style cases that will help with venting into the cam cavity on bigger builds. There are several ways of doing this.
Thread Starter
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Road Captain
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 566
Likes: 70
From: The Redneck Riviera
The older style cases could use a reed valve. This could cause sumping because of the pressure differential between cam and crank cavities. Higher head pressure in the cam chest would bias the oil being removed from there more then the crank cavity. A duel stage scavenge isn't affect by this bias and the benefits of less pressure in the crank cavity can be taken advantage of. I have also seen one way valves installed in newer style cases that will help with venting into the cam cavity on bigger builds. There are several ways of doing this.
I've read of the reed / one way valves being referenced on other Threads, but no detail?
Any pics or links, showing the valves / installation??
How big are the engines when the valves become "helpful"?