Engine Mechanical Topics Discussion for motor builds, cams, head work, stripped bolts and other engine related issues. The good and the bad. If it goes round and around or up and down, post it here.

Street/Strip 124" Build

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old Jul 27, 2020 | 01:32 PM
  #51  
Big_O's Avatar
Big_O
Thread Starter
|
Cruiser
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 147
Likes: 34
From: Illinois
Default

Originally Posted by 60Gunner
Curious how you determined where to put the steps?
Wolfgang (Mutant Motors by Wolf) is the one building the pipe. He calculates where they need to be based off of the exhaust gas velocity, gas temperature, and exhaust valve events. I think its a computer program, however he does change his step lengths around a little to suit the application. In my case, being a geared dyna, the pipe should favor the 3500+ rpm range.
 
Reply
Old Aug 4, 2020 | 05:43 PM
  #52  
60Gunner's Avatar
60Gunner
Grand HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 4,359
Likes: 1,219
From: Dubuque, IA
Default

Be interesting to see how well it does.
 
Reply
Old Aug 5, 2020 | 06:33 AM
  #53  
prodrag1320's Avatar
prodrag1320
Banned
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,569
Likes: 624
From: deland,florida
Default

Originally Posted by Big_O
Intakes are at 315 cfm @ .700" exhausts are at 240 cfm @ .700". He was hoping for a little more top-end flow out of the intakes, but didn't want to sacrifice any mid-range flow. Today the compression will be set at 12:1.

Here's a pic he sent today.
intake flow is very low,on our regular 124 street builds we`re seeing at least 325 out of our 2.100/110 heads (330+ on street/strip motors) also build many 2-1 burns collector pipes over the years.how are you measuring for equil length? we would fill the pipe with water & make sure they both hold the same amount,simpyt measuring them with string or a tape measure dosnt work
 
Reply
Old Aug 5, 2020 | 07:27 AM
  #54  
Big_O's Avatar
Big_O
Thread Starter
|
Cruiser
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 147
Likes: 34
From: Illinois
Default

Originally Posted by prodrag1320
intake flow is very low,on our regular 124 street builds we`re seeing at least 325 out of our 2.100/110 heads (330+ on street/strip motors) also build many 2-1 burns collector pipes over the years.how are you measuring for equil length? we would fill the pipe with water & make sure they both hold the same amount,simpyt measuring them with string or a tape measure dosnt work
Steps were done by volume with water. the headers are not equal length, but tuned considering pressure losses through the bends on the rear head pipe. I do agree with the lowish flow rate on the intake, the flow was slightly compromised from the valves being sunk in the heads to accommodate the potential .276/.220 TDC lifts (might run a 1.725 on the intake).
 
Reply
Old Aug 5, 2020 | 07:36 AM
  #55  
Big_O's Avatar
Big_O
Thread Starter
|
Cruiser
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 147
Likes: 34
From: Illinois
Default

Originally Posted by 60Gunner
Be interesting to see how well it does.
Shouldn't hold back the big end at all! lol
 
Reply
Old Aug 5, 2020 | 12:01 PM
  #56  
60Gunner's Avatar
60Gunner
Grand HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 4,359
Likes: 1,219
From: Dubuque, IA
Default

Originally Posted by Big_O
Shouldn't hold back the big end at all! lol

No, it shouldn't and that's the important end. Especially in a race build anyway. HP wins races. Low end torque is for touring bikes to get their 900lb. bikes and 650lbs. of rider/passenger weight off the line. lol
Oops, did I say that out loud? ;p

Here's a 124" in a '93 XL. From the XL forums...
Here's the entire thread spanning 7 years.


Originally Posted by Jörgen
Thanks
Interesting and nice sounding bike. I found the link http://www.camerondonald.com/trease-...sland-classic/

The torque curve of the 124" engine looks like a table. So the power builds up without peaks or dips. In low rpm its brutal, then it gets worse


Same runs but with torque in Newtonmeter (SAE)


Since the bike has oem wheel base I can not use full power until third gear. In third gear she does power wheelies too, but not that high.

The engine is quite civilized on the street. Low fuel consumption, nice behaviors and easy starting. I guess that this is a result of the closed loop S&S VFI fuel injection, S&S combustion chamber design and electric compression releases.

But for track racing and fast cornering, this much displacement is probably not the right way to go. Very picky on the throttle control, since a very small increment on the throttle handle is the only difference beteween hard engine braking and hard acceleration. Nursing the rear tire to keep traction during fast cornering with a light bike is a lot easier with a smaller and faster spinning engine. This is more of a hot rod harley.
 

Last edited by 60Gunner; Aug 5, 2020 at 12:37 PM.
Reply
Old Aug 5, 2020 | 06:08 PM
  #57  
PWMORRIS's Avatar
PWMORRIS
Road Captain
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 714
Likes: 120
Default

I wouldn’t sweat the flow numbers. Wolfgang knows how to make power, set up proper pipe length steps based on motor needs, and I’m sure he also knows, flow numbers are just a tool to evaluate the heads, with VELOCITY being number uno. My street heads flow a bit north of 400 on the intake, but remember.....we are using street bikes on the -street-where a big, sewer pipe hogged out intake hole that flows huge numbers will be a dog driving around town at street compression, moderate, street friendly lift, and pump gas. Gotta have Big Time port speed. V Twins are basically a Pushrod V 8 sliced off, and for heads to Really make big time power, they have to match the motor, valve train, compression, fuel availability, cam profile, type and size of induction system, Exhaust, and how the motor will be used, combined with the honest goals of the owner/rider.......
Anything, anything, off even a little bit in the recipe, Equals less than optimum results. See it all the time, and the end result is a pissed off or disillusioned owner, who was guaranteed “big numbers”, and got far less at the end of the day than they were promised.
No free lunch.

A couple car quotes on making V 8 power......

https://rehermorrison.com/tech-talk-...nch-fallacies/

And,
Here is what Darin Morgan aka, HP king says...

”Cylinder head specialist Darin Morgan says that with all the aftermarket heads available choosing a cylinder head today is a difficult task. Unfortunately, a bad choice can cost thousands of dollars in wasted time, says Morgan, and a bad head choice may go unnoticed without ever lshowcasing how good your engine could have been.So with all the heads on the market, how do you make the right choice? Morgan says it’s a complex issue with no simple answer.

"I wish I could lay out some quick and easy mathematical equations or some simple guidelines to help, but there simply aren’t any," says Morgan. "It’s a complex issue, which is why so many people have trouble. The best way to grasp what’s most important is to use what I consider the five most important variables used to tune the induction system.
  1. Average velocity;
  2. Individual instantaneous velocities;
  3. Shape/design (maximize a homogeneous velocity profile over the entire port and at the same time promote efficient flow);
  4. Rate of velocity change; and
  5. Airflow.
Morgan says that if you follow his five variables you’ll soon find the most important rules of designing an induction system are: Velocity, Velocity, Shape, Velocity and, finally, Airflow.”











 
Reply
Old Aug 5, 2020 | 06:39 PM
  #58  
60Gunner's Avatar
60Gunner
Grand HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 4,359
Likes: 1,219
From: Dubuque, IA
Default

I agree 100%. Far too often emphasis is put on flow and velocity takes a backseat when it should be the other way around.
 
Reply
HD Forum Stories

The Best of Harley-Davidson for Lifelong Riders

story-0

7 Times Harley-Davidson Chucked Tradition Out the Window

 Verdad Gallardo
story-1

7 Surprising Harley-Davidson Products that Are Not Motorcycles

 Verdad Gallardo
story-2

8 Best Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Ever

 Pouria Savadkouei
story-3

10 Worst Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Ever

 Pouria Savadkouei
story-4

Killer Custom's Jail Break Is The Breakout That Refused to Blend In

 Verdad Gallardo
story-5

Crazy Bunderbike Build Looks Amazing, But Is It Impossible to Ride?

 Verdad Gallardo
story-6

Harley-Davidson Reveals Super Cool Cafe Racer Concept

 Verdad Gallardo
story-7

Engraved Rebellion: Inside Bundnerbike's Glam Rock II

 Verdad Gallardo
story-8

10 Motorcycles You Should Never Buy

 Joe Kucinski
story-9

10 Things Harley-Davidson Needs to Fix in 2026

 Verdad Gallardo
Old Aug 6, 2020 | 08:13 AM
  #59  
Big_O's Avatar
Big_O
Thread Starter
|
Cruiser
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 147
Likes: 34
From: Illinois
Default

Originally Posted by PWMORRIS
I wouldn’t sweat the flow numbers. Wolfgang knows how to make power, set up proper pipe length steps based on motor needs, and I’m sure he also knows, flow numbers are just a tool to evaluate the heads, with VELOCITY being number uno. My street heads flow a bit north of 400 on the intake, but remember.....we are using street bikes on the -street-where a big, sewer pipe hogged out intake hole that flows huge numbers will be a dog driving around town at street compression, moderate, street friendly lift, and pump gas. Gotta have Big Time port speed. V Twins are basically a Pushrod V 8 sliced off, and for heads to Really make big time power, they have to match the motor, valve train, compression, fuel availability, cam profile, type and size of induction system, Exhaust, and how the motor will be used, combined with the honest goals of the owner/rider.......
Anything, anything, off even a little bit in the recipe, Equals less than optimum results. See it all the time, and the end result is a pissed off or disillusioned owner, who was guaranteed “big numbers”, and got far less at the end of the day than they were promised.
No free lunch.

A couple car quotes on making V 8 power......

https://rehermorrison.com/tech-talk-...nch-fallacies/

And,
Here is what Darin Morgan aka, HP king says...

”Cylinder head specialist Darin Morgan says that with all the aftermarket heads available choosing a cylinder head today is a difficult task. Unfortunately, a bad choice can cost thousands of dollars in wasted time, says Morgan, and a bad head choice may go unnoticed without ever lshowcasing how good your engine could have been.So with all the heads on the market, how do you make the right choice? Morgan says it’s a complex issue with no simple answer.

"I wish I could lay out some quick and easy mathematical equations or some simple guidelines to help, but there simply aren’t any," says Morgan. "It’s a complex issue, which is why so many people have trouble. The best way to grasp what’s most important is to use what I consider the five most important variables used to tune the induction system.
  1. Average velocity;
  2. Individual instantaneous velocities;
  3. Shape/design (maximize a homogeneous velocity profile over the entire port and at the same time promote efficient flow);
  4. Rate of velocity change; and
  5. Airflow.
Morgan says that if you follow his five variables you’ll soon find the most important rules of designing an induction system are: Velocity, Velocity, Shape, Velocity and, finally, Airflow.”
Thanks for sharing that article, that was a good read. When I spoke to Wolf about the heads he told me just about the same exact thing as you. Most of his time was spent dialing in the port shape with the velocity probe, making sure the port had no dead spots. The heads were dialed in for what I wanted with longevity being considered as well.

I trust his recipe, as this same setup with his 110 heads, same cam, pipe, and compression made 163hp on his dyno (on 93 pump gas), and put his 700lb Road King in the deep 10s.
 
Reply
Old Aug 6, 2020 | 06:26 PM
  #60  
PWMORRIS's Avatar
PWMORRIS
Road Captain
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 714
Likes: 120
Default

Originally Posted by Big_O
Thanks for sharing that article, that was a good read. When I spoke to Wolf about the heads he told me just about the same exact thing as you. Most of his time was spent dialing in the port shape with the velocity probe, making sure the port had no dead spots. The heads were dialed in for what I wanted with longevity being considered as well.

I trust his recipe, as this same setup with his 110 heads, same cam, pipe, and compression made 163hp on his dyno (on 93 pump gas), and put his 700lb Road King in the deep 10s.
Anytime...👍👍
Ive only had Baisley and SA Racing touch my heads, but Wolfgang knows his stuff, for sure. You and Wolf have to be on the same page as to goals (Ex:longevity), to have a successful build at the end of the day. Remember, your numbers (whatever they end up being), with be compromised by those “street” goals, and a full drag strip 124” numbers will be different than yours. Just the way it is....At the end of the day, it’s why it’s so hard for example, for my Crap Cali pump gas 126” street bike to run high nines N/A-you have to thread a very fine line between street and strip. Take some away on lift, flow, velocity, intake size, compression etc.... go slower and watch the “big” numbers drop. Add comp, lift, fuel octane, etc...it sucks as a daily driver-but you’ll be a hero with your buddies- I’ve been at both sides of the coin and almost Ruined a very fast street bike cause I wanted “ more, more, more...”
So, pick your poison, and even if you do, you Still might not get what you want...but you might get what you need.

 
Reply



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:46 PM.

story-0
7 Times Harley-Davidson Chucked Tradition Out the Window

Slideshow: Harley-Davidson built its reputation on nostalgia, but every so often, the company took a hard left turn into the future.

By Verdad Gallardo | 2026-05-20 11:18:19


VIEW MORE
story-1
7 Surprising Harley-Davidson Products that Are Not Motorcycles

Slideshow: The bar-and-shield logo shows up on far more than motorcycles, some of the company's most unexpected products have nothing to do with riding.

By Verdad Gallardo | 2026-04-29 16:50:35


VIEW MORE
story-2
8 Best Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Ever

Slideshow: Not every Harley gets it right, but these are the ones that genuinely earned their reputation.

By Pouria Savadkouei | 2026-04-15 14:23:21


VIEW MORE
story-3
10 Worst Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Ever

Slideshow: From the troubled AMF years to modern misfires, these bikes earned reputations for reliability issues, questionable engineering, or disappointing performance.

By Pouria Savadkouei | 2026-04-01 20:01:09


VIEW MORE
story-4
Killer Custom's Jail Break Is The Breakout That Refused to Blend In

Slideshow: Killer Custom's "Jail Breaker" build focuses more on stance and visual aggression than mechanical overhaul.

By Verdad Gallardo | 2026-03-18 19:20:32


VIEW MORE
story-5
Crazy Bunderbike Build Looks Amazing, But Is It Impossible to Ride?

Slideshow: The Swiss custom shop has taken a Harley Softail and stretched it into something so long and low that it looks closer to a rolling sculpture than a conventional motorcycle.

By Verdad Gallardo | 2026-03-07 16:15:30


VIEW MORE
story-6
Harley-Davidson Reveals Super Cool Cafe Racer Concept

Slideshow: Harley-Davidson's new RMCR concept revives the café racer formula with modern hardware-and it may be exactly the reset the company needs.

By Verdad Gallardo | 2026-03-04 12:23:37


VIEW MORE
story-7
Engraved Rebellion: Inside Bundnerbike's Glam Rock II

Slideshow: A standard cruiser becomes an intricate metal canvas in the hands of a Swiss custom house known for pushing Harley-Davidson platforms far beyond their factory brief.

By Verdad Gallardo | 2026-02-24 18:19:44


VIEW MORE
story-8
10 Motorcycles You Should Never Buy

Slideshow: There is no shortage of great motorcycles to buy, but we would avoid these ten.

By Joe Kucinski | 2026-02-19 14:50:51


VIEW MORE
story-9
10 Things Harley-Davidson Needs to Fix in 2026

Slideshow: Harley-Davidson's challenges aren't abstract; they show up in dropping shipments, shrinking dealer traffic, and strategic decisions that aren't yet translating into growth.

By Verdad Gallardo | 2026-01-13 18:33:17


VIEW MORE