Squish and Volumetric Efficiency
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From: Dubuque, IA
Squish and Volumetric Efficiency
I'm wondering about the percentage of increase in volumetric efficiency one might expect by going to a .030 head gasket that would "get it close" before doing any smart tuning. Is there a ballpark number say 5% across the board assuming 10% is roughly 1 point AFR. Are some rpm/throttle cells affected more than others? Im assuming so and being cam dependent.
I'm not going to get it on a dyno any more this year and even smart tuning right now might be questionable since the rear o2 sensor took a dump. I was running open loop but would go back to having a small closed loop area while tuning til I get the VE tables dialed in again at least. They were within 1% after 4 hours on the dyno til doing the .030 head gasket 2 weeks ago. My pistons are .003 in the hole. It bumped my CCP from 190 to 200psi. .033 squish.
2013 103/S&S 570s/Rush slip ons/outlaw 606 AC/30 tooth compensator eliminator/SE Pro Super Tuner.
I'd like to run these last few days of nice weather but don't want to run too lean/out of tune either. It runs good but I'm **** about these things. I realize there's no magic number but looking for an educated ballpark one.
MPG is of secondary concern. My primary is performance and running enough fuel to aid in cooling given my riding style and high rpm cruise but not to the point of carbon buildup.
I was getting 30ish mpg hotrodding around town and 40ish highway cruise. My plugs were clean but had a little color to them.
I'm not going to get it on a dyno any more this year and even smart tuning right now might be questionable since the rear o2 sensor took a dump. I was running open loop but would go back to having a small closed loop area while tuning til I get the VE tables dialed in again at least. They were within 1% after 4 hours on the dyno til doing the .030 head gasket 2 weeks ago. My pistons are .003 in the hole. It bumped my CCP from 190 to 200psi. .033 squish.
2013 103/S&S 570s/Rush slip ons/outlaw 606 AC/30 tooth compensator eliminator/SE Pro Super Tuner.
I'd like to run these last few days of nice weather but don't want to run too lean/out of tune either. It runs good but I'm **** about these things. I realize there's no magic number but looking for an educated ballpark one.
MPG is of secondary concern. My primary is performance and running enough fuel to aid in cooling given my riding style and high rpm cruise but not to the point of carbon buildup.
I was getting 30ish mpg hotrodding around town and 40ish highway cruise. My plugs were clean but had a little color to them.
Last edited by 60Gunner; Nov 8, 2020 at 01:09 PM.
Road Master
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 815
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From: Uptown Bay Area, Cali
I'm wondering about the percentage of increase in volumetric efficiency one might expect by going to a .030 head gasket that would "get it close" before doing any smart tuning. Is there a ballpark number say 5% across the board assuming 10% is roughly 1 point AFR. Are some rpm/throttle cells affected more than others? Im assuming so and being cam dependent.
I'm not going to get it on a dyno any more this year and even smart tuning right now might be questionable since the rear o2 sensor took a dump. I was running open loop but would go back to having a small closed loop area while tuning til I get the VE tables dialed in again at least. They were within 1% after 4 hours on the dyno til doing the .030 head gasket 2 weeks ago. My pistons are .003 in the hole. It bumped my CCP from 190 to 200psi. .033 squish.
2013 103/S&S 570s/Rush slip ons/outlaw 606 AC/30 tooth compensator eliminator/SE Pro Super Tuner.
I'd like to run these last few days of nice weather but don't want to run too lean/out of tune either. It runs good but I'm **** about these things. I realize there's no magic number but looking for an educated ballpark one.
MPG is of secondary concern. My primary is performance and running enough fuel to aid in cooling given my riding style and high rpm cruise but not to the point of carbon buildup.
I was getting 30ish mpg hotrodding around town and 40ish highway cruise. My plugs were clean but had a little color to them.
I'm not going to get it on a dyno any more this year and even smart tuning right now might be questionable since the rear o2 sensor took a dump. I was running open loop but would go back to having a small closed loop area while tuning til I get the VE tables dialed in again at least. They were within 1% after 4 hours on the dyno til doing the .030 head gasket 2 weeks ago. My pistons are .003 in the hole. It bumped my CCP from 190 to 200psi. .033 squish.
2013 103/S&S 570s/Rush slip ons/outlaw 606 AC/30 tooth compensator eliminator/SE Pro Super Tuner.
I'd like to run these last few days of nice weather but don't want to run too lean/out of tune either. It runs good but I'm **** about these things. I realize there's no magic number but looking for an educated ballpark one.
MPG is of secondary concern. My primary is performance and running enough fuel to aid in cooling given my riding style and high rpm cruise but not to the point of carbon buildup.
I was getting 30ish mpg hotrodding around town and 40ish highway cruise. My plugs were clean but had a little color to them.
In your case, you are going to see larger gains because you are also raising the compression.
The above is only going to hold true is there is enough quench area to help speed up the flame front during the burn cycle.
Some more food for thought:
https://www.hotrod.com/articles/ctrp...rque-relation/
Dave
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From: Dubuque, IA
Yep, right on. Good read. Probably the biggest mistake people make is choosing an exhaust to chase numbers on a dyno, not matching it to their cams and where they run most. For me that's from 3000 - 5000rpm. The 570s shine there and so do the Rush slip ons and with the stock head pipes. And they play well with the overlap of the cams. Not many do that and no exhaust is a hp king pipe AND a stump pulling pipe. Mine is neither really.
Even my 30 tooth primary sprocket, by keeping my cruise rpm there, compliments the cams/exhaust. 6th gear/70mph @ 3000rpm. I never drop below 3000rpm when I upshift running the gears now. Always on the cams.
I'm not interested in being a hp king or a stump puller. I'm 110% about the midrange. I'd rather see a smaller bump across a wider rpm range in that powerband than a larger, concentrated one for bragging rights on a dyno.
I don't necessarily agree with the torque vs. hp and winning races tho. In a flat out head to head drag race, hp wins every time. In a street bike a balance between the 2, a strong midrange is going to rule. This has always been my goal and mr. Woods was right on about that sprocket from Evolution Industries. Best thing I could've done.
But I do make heat. That's why I'm **** about a good tune and giving it the fuel it need/wants and not worry about mpg. There is no 14.anything in my AFR table once my VE tables are dialed in.
Even my 30 tooth primary sprocket, by keeping my cruise rpm there, compliments the cams/exhaust. 6th gear/70mph @ 3000rpm. I never drop below 3000rpm when I upshift running the gears now. Always on the cams.
I'm not interested in being a hp king or a stump puller. I'm 110% about the midrange. I'd rather see a smaller bump across a wider rpm range in that powerband than a larger, concentrated one for bragging rights on a dyno.
I don't necessarily agree with the torque vs. hp and winning races tho. In a flat out head to head drag race, hp wins every time. In a street bike a balance between the 2, a strong midrange is going to rule. This has always been my goal and mr. Woods was right on about that sprocket from Evolution Industries. Best thing I could've done.
But I do make heat. That's why I'm **** about a good tune and giving it the fuel it need/wants and not worry about mpg. There is no 14.anything in my AFR table once my VE tables are dialed in.
Last edited by 60Gunner; Nov 9, 2020 at 07:59 AM.
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You probably could have gone with a .027 gasket if you weren't close on TDC lift. Tightening up the squish will increase the burn efficiency, and therefore may affect the afr. But let's not confuse this with volumetric efficiency, which would not increase based on a small change in gasket thickness.
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Grand HDF Member
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That's what I'm trying to figure out. How much does it affect VE, AFR, etc. I don't think a whole lot. If it does, which way? If it's more efficient, would it mean lowering the VE tables and require less fuel? I understand backing off the timing because not as much advance is needed? But then there's 2 schools of thought there too. The other being it's less prone to detonation therefore making it possible to run more advance.
I'm just wanting to tweak it the best I can since I wont dyno it again til next year. That or maybe go with PV target tune and lose the SE Pro Super Tuner.
The increase in power, while not huge, is noticeable while not working as hard is as well. Better low end response for lack of a better way to describe it. Not that it was bad before. I haven't run it much or very hard yet to get a good feel across the board.
I'm just wanting to tweak it the best I can since I wont dyno it again til next year. That or maybe go with PV target tune and lose the SE Pro Super Tuner.
The increase in power, while not huge, is noticeable while not working as hard is as well. Better low end response for lack of a better way to describe it. Not that it was bad before. I haven't run it much or very hard yet to get a good feel across the board.
Last edited by 60Gunner; Nov 9, 2020 at 01:50 PM.
Road Master
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 815
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From: Uptown Bay Area, Cali
That's what I'm trying to figure out. How much does it affect VE, AFR, etc. I don't think a whole lot. If it does, which way? If it's more efficient, would it mean lowering the VE tables and require less fuel? I understand backing off the timing because not as much advance is needed? But then there's 2 schools of thought there too. The other being it's less prone to detonation therefore making it possible to run more advance.
I'm just wanting to tweak it the best I can since I wont dyno it again til next year. That or maybe go with PV target tune and lose the SE Pro Super Tuner.
The increase in power, while not huge, is noticeable while not working as hard is as well. Better low end response for lack of a better way to describe it. Not that it was bad before. I haven't run it much or very hard yet to get a good feel across the board.
I'm just wanting to tweak it the best I can since I wont dyno it again til next year. That or maybe go with PV target tune and lose the SE Pro Super Tuner.
The increase in power, while not huge, is noticeable while not working as hard is as well. Better low end response for lack of a better way to describe it. Not that it was bad before. I haven't run it much or very hard yet to get a good feel across the board.
The quench is what allows you to run more compression. The chamber design is what is going to dictate how much timing the motor requires for maximum power. It is the increased compression that gives you better throttle response, and helps power across the whole rpm range.
With the Harley, you are better running it slightly rich to help remove heat. On a car you have a cooling system. You can smell fuel with my bike idling, but it doesn't get too hot, even with 11+ compression and no oil coolers.
If you are serious about tuning, TTS is the way to go.
Dave
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Grand HDF Member
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From: Dubuque, IA
So why the TTS?
I'm no beginner to tuning but I'm far from an expert too. I've gotten somewhat comfortable with the SE Pro Super Tuner and that's no easy task but it's best used with a dyno.
That said, I'm pretlty sure the PV and it's target tune is probably the best option for self tuning with no dyno. But I'm curious why you think the TTS is the ticket? Who, as I'm sure you know, made the SE Pro Super Tuner . I do think the TTS is a good tuner and better than the SEPST but both are capable of smart tuning VE tables. I just need to replace that sensor. Timing is another issue and no easy way to do without a dyno but can be done.
Anyway, thanks for the insight. While I dont think the squish and bump in compression makes a huge difference in VE, it does make some and I want them dialed in as close as possible. It makes a difference when running open loop as far as the AFR actually being what I have for target AFR.
I'm no beginner to tuning but I'm far from an expert too. I've gotten somewhat comfortable with the SE Pro Super Tuner and that's no easy task but it's best used with a dyno.
That said, I'm pretlty sure the PV and it's target tune is probably the best option for self tuning with no dyno. But I'm curious why you think the TTS is the ticket? Who, as I'm sure you know, made the SE Pro Super Tuner . I do think the TTS is a good tuner and better than the SEPST but both are capable of smart tuning VE tables. I just need to replace that sensor. Timing is another issue and no easy way to do without a dyno but can be done.
Anyway, thanks for the insight. While I dont think the squish and bump in compression makes a huge difference in VE, it does make some and I want them dialed in as close as possible. It makes a difference when running open loop as far as the AFR actually being what I have for target AFR.
Last edited by 60Gunner; Nov 10, 2020 at 08:15 AM.
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Road Master
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 815
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From: Uptown Bay Area, Cali
So why the TTS?
I'm no beginner to tuning but I'm far from an expert too. I've gotten somewhat comfortable with the SE Pro Super Tuner and that's no easy task but it's best used with a dyno.
That said, I'm pretlty sure the PV and it's target tune is probably the best option for self tuning with no dyno. But I'm curious why you think the TTS is the ticket? Who, as I'm sure you know, made the SE Pro Super Tuner . I do think the TTS is a good tuner and better than the SEPST but both are capable of smart tuning VE tables. I just need to replace that sensor. Timing is another issue and no easy way to do without a dyno but can be done.
Anyway, thanks for the insight. While I dont think the squish and bump in compression makes a huge difference in VE, it does make some and I want them dialed in as close as possible. It makes a difference when running open loop as far as the AFR actually being what I have for target AFR.
I'm no beginner to tuning but I'm far from an expert too. I've gotten somewhat comfortable with the SE Pro Super Tuner and that's no easy task but it's best used with a dyno.
That said, I'm pretlty sure the PV and it's target tune is probably the best option for self tuning with no dyno. But I'm curious why you think the TTS is the ticket? Who, as I'm sure you know, made the SE Pro Super Tuner . I do think the TTS is a good tuner and better than the SEPST but both are capable of smart tuning VE tables. I just need to replace that sensor. Timing is another issue and no easy way to do without a dyno but can be done.
Anyway, thanks for the insight. While I dont think the squish and bump in compression makes a huge difference in VE, it does make some and I want them dialed in as close as possible. It makes a difference when running open loop as far as the AFR actually being what I have for target AFR.
Why the TTS? As you stated, they designed the whole system to begin with. If one is looking for a budget upgrade, then yes, there are many other systems out there. The TTS in a "good dyno operator hands" is going to "dialed in". I have ridden friend's bikes with "self-tuning capability" tuners, and other ones tuned at the dealership, and when they had their bikes dyno tuned with the TTS, and it was like a different bike. I am lucky that I have a good tuner 10 minutes from my house, and maybe that skews my viewpoint on the TTS and dyno tuning it.
Dave
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From: Dubuque, IA
I am in agreement that it does not make a huge difference, when you are looking to get something dialed in though, it is the small things that add up. I was able to make 150 hp with a small cam, small tube exhaust, and have motor that behaves like a stock motor at low rpms. It took a lot of "little things" to get there.
H the TTS? As you stated, they designed the whole system to begin with. If one is looking for a budget upgrade, then yes, there are many other systems out there. The TTS in a "good dyno operator hands" is going to "dialed in". I have ridden friend's bikes with "self-tuning capability" tuners, and other ones tuned at the dealership, and when they had their bikes dyno tuned with the TTS, and it was like a different bike. I am lucky that I have a good tuner 10 minutes from my house, and maybe that skews my viewpoint on the TTS and dyno tuning it.
Dave
H the TTS? As you stated, they designed the whole system to begin with. If one is looking for a budget upgrade, then yes, there are many other systems out there. The TTS in a "good dyno operator hands" is going to "dialed in". I have ridden friend's bikes with "self-tuning capability" tuners, and other ones tuned at the dealership, and when they had their bikes dyno tuned with the TTS, and it was like a different bike. I am lucky that I have a good tuner 10 minutes from my house, and maybe that skews my viewpoint on the TTS and dyno tuning it.
Dave
I'd like to dyno tune again but...
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