Finding neutral
Stellar HDF Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 2,137
Likes: 17
From:
"Dragging" meaning the clutch is never fully disengaged, meaning the bike always wants to move while it's running.
This is all kind of strange to me, as I have never had any difficulty finding neutral on any bike I have ever ridden, whether mine or a dealer's or a friend's, never once have I had difficulty finding neutral.
And sometimes my FXRS clicks when I press the shifter down for first, and other times it makes no sound at all.
This is all kind of strange to me, as I have never had any difficulty finding neutral on any bike I have ever ridden, whether mine or a dealer's or a friend's, never once have I had difficulty finding neutral.
And sometimes my FXRS clicks when I press the shifter down for first, and other times it makes no sound at all.
Cruiser
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 139
Likes: 0
From: Tucson AZ area
I am glad I found this EVO forum and also this question about neutral.....
I just bought my first HD, it is a 96 FLHR-I "road king" and I was thinking I may have an issue with the trans or clutch, same as everyone else it seems, neutral is tough to find. I will try the throttle burp to see if that helps..... thanks
I just bought my first HD, it is a 96 FLHR-I "road king" and I was thinking I may have an issue with the trans or clutch, same as everyone else it seems, neutral is tough to find. I will try the throttle burp to see if that helps..... thanks
Last edited by fatboyNick; Aug 8, 2010 at 11:06 AM.
Club Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 45,429
Likes: 2,897
From: Bedford UK
Graham,
I think your '90 has a different clutch than my '86. I know the throwout mechanism/arm is completely different, with mine like 1936-1986 and your's "like a Sportster." But... In general, if it is all adjusted according to the book with the right free play at the handlebar control, and no "easy pull" gizmo in there (cost me a clutch on the Sportster), then that's about as good as you are going to get adjustment wise. After that, try the different fluids. I used only HD primary and transmission fluid for like 22 years in my bike, then when HD discontinued the primary fluid, I changed to the Mobil 1 ATF for the primary and Mobil SHC630 for the transmission, and my bike now shifts better than it ever has, including when it was brand new (I opened the box myself.) I don't know which or if both fluid changes made the most difference, but I'd say that the primary ATF was probably best for the clutch fully disengaging/finding neutral, and the SHC630 best for smooth shifts under way. The SHC630 is an industrial lubricant made for lifetime fills of heavy equipment, fully synthetic, lasts 6x longer than conventional gear lubes. Just not too good for syncromesh boxes, which is why I had some extra laying around. Lotus used a slightly modified SHC630 (SHC630M) that most likely had a friction modifier added to slow the syncros down. I refer to it as "Magic gear oil" because that's how they managed to keep the UN1 gear box together at 50% over it's design HP. Lotus now specs Castrol TAFX or something instead of Mobil SHC630M because Mobil doesn't make the 'M' stuff anymore. The TAFX is a Europe only item and is not sold here outside of Lotus dealers.
I think your '90 has a different clutch than my '86. I know the throwout mechanism/arm is completely different, with mine like 1936-1986 and your's "like a Sportster." But... In general, if it is all adjusted according to the book with the right free play at the handlebar control, and no "easy pull" gizmo in there (cost me a clutch on the Sportster), then that's about as good as you are going to get adjustment wise. After that, try the different fluids. I used only HD primary and transmission fluid for like 22 years in my bike, then when HD discontinued the primary fluid, I changed to the Mobil 1 ATF for the primary and Mobil SHC630 for the transmission, and my bike now shifts better than it ever has, including when it was brand new (I opened the box myself.) I don't know which or if both fluid changes made the most difference, but I'd say that the primary ATF was probably best for the clutch fully disengaging/finding neutral, and the SHC630 best for smooth shifts under way. The SHC630 is an industrial lubricant made for lifetime fills of heavy equipment, fully synthetic, lasts 6x longer than conventional gear lubes. Just not too good for syncromesh boxes, which is why I had some extra laying around. Lotus used a slightly modified SHC630 (SHC630M) that most likely had a friction modifier added to slow the syncros down. I refer to it as "Magic gear oil" because that's how they managed to keep the UN1 gear box together at 50% over it's design HP. Lotus now specs Castrol TAFX or something instead of Mobil SHC630M because Mobil doesn't make the 'M' stuff anymore. The TAFX is a Europe only item and is not sold here outside of Lotus dealers.
Irongear, thanks for your instructions. I recently discovered there is a new improved 'Diamondback™ Low Effort clutch cable' that Harley has introduced and, with my 20 year old bike, fitting one of them would be a good starting point.
Last edited by grbrown; Aug 10, 2010 at 03:46 AM. Reason: Added para.
Thread Starter
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Intermediate
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Is there a way to measure the clutch plates? The manual says to use a straight edge against the adjustment plate and measure the distance to the compression spring with a feeler gauge but I can't figure out what they mean and there is no picture in the manual.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 8,852
Likes: 2,493
From: Decatur, Alabama
Excellent post. Thanks for the information. Neutral in my Roadking can be a pain sometimes. I'm going to check everything mentioned below to see if I can improve it.
Carl
Carl
For starters, I run the factory lube, so nothing special there.
The lubrication of the clutch cable is essential. Now you might think that would not matter, but it really does.
Wear and tear at the pivot point is your enemy.
So we have a well lubed cable(very light oil, never wd 40, or your local equivalent, as they actually dry out, and are penetrants, not lubricants)
and the lever pivots , and cable loop end, well never seized.
Irrespective of the release mechanism style, the key to effective release is making sure you have the maximum lateral movement in relation to lever movement.
Now on the ramp style, this occurs when the release ball bearings are well and truly centered.
So after you have wound the cable adjuster into itself, so as to make lots of cable freeplay (which you have to do to lube the cable anyhow), you need to set the ramp throw.
(a note here; if you are backing off the adjuster to get a little more cable exposed to make it easier to lube, be careful about pulling the lever, as you could throw the ramp "over centre", meaning you can accidentally rotate it too far, and that is bad, as it may require disassembly to correct)
This needs to be kept to a minimum freeplay, as in half a turn backed off.
You break the lock nut, and turn the screw in until it seats (and you do not have to do that lightly in this case, it is not a carb idle screw).
You can turn it right home so as to be sure that the ramp is fully seated(several times to get the feel), then back it off no more than half a turn. Tighten the locknut.
(another note here; cable routing is important. The cable should pass over the handlebar, and travel down the steering neck as close to parallel as possible. This ensures constant clutch operation, even when turning the bars. HD have been getting a bit lazy about that lately. When I bought my latest bike new, the cable was incorrectly routed, so I told them, and told them why. They never changed it, and the clutch was awful. I rerouted it, and was a big improvement)
Time to adjust the cable.
The stock cable is very strong. This is a very good thing, as all the lever movement is transferred to the release ramp(weak cables flex, and this is movement lost)
With a strong cable, you can easily be fooled into allowing too much freeplay.
Adjust the cable to a minimum freeplay at the point where the cable enters the "perch". Some say a dime(I do not, as I live in a dime free environment), or an 1/8 of an inch(too much for my money)
Things do expand, so if you were to notice that all your adjustment was gone when hot, then it would be too tight. But even at a 1/16, that would never happen.
To correctly assess that amount, you have to hold both the lever and the cable, and move them back and forth together (with hands both facing same way, handlebar style, whether facing the bike or not)
Otherwise you will think you have the cable adjusted well, and it will be loose as a goose.
Idle speed.
Once upon a time, idle speeds were much lower than today, 600 -800. If your idle is 1200, for example, that will not help you.
There is talk of lack of lube with low idle.
What is true is that the faster the engine speed, the more oil pressure.
What is untrue is that if your idle is 1000, then you will not be pumping enough oil, and you engine will blow to bits.
The bike is cold, and it is the first start.
NEVER place the bike in gear to start it, so as to avoid a clunk. I have seen people post this, and it is (clearly) crazy. We also do not want insane engine blipping when cold. But a few mild blips, timed perfectly with the pulling of the clutch lever, will help to throw that overnight oil off.
The moment in time when you have just blipped the engine, and the clutch lever was pulled in, and the revs have just fallen, is the point of least grab between the plates. Seize your moment. If you wait a few seconds, stiction
will rise.
When it is all warmed up, you do not need to blip. as such. but always coinciding with the initial pull in of the lever will help, rather than hinder.
If you inspect the shifter ramp in the transmission, you will see that selecting neutral from second is a lot less likely.
If you have been sitting idling for a while, and you are thinking to yourself, Hmmmmmmm, things might be a little hot and sticky, wish I had gotten into neutral a little sooner, the bump and release will solve your issues.
Make as if you are about to take off, but in such a way that there is no noticeable movement, as in......
Slight raising of revs, slight release of lever, until it "bumps", then whip the lever back in and grab neutral(you will get it with practice)
This is also true.......Careful set-up, and attention to detail and lubing will give you a good result. Normal is when the clutch works like a dream, not a nightmare.
The lubrication of the clutch cable is essential. Now you might think that would not matter, but it really does.
Wear and tear at the pivot point is your enemy.
So we have a well lubed cable(very light oil, never wd 40, or your local equivalent, as they actually dry out, and are penetrants, not lubricants)
and the lever pivots , and cable loop end, well never seized.
Irrespective of the release mechanism style, the key to effective release is making sure you have the maximum lateral movement in relation to lever movement.
Now on the ramp style, this occurs when the release ball bearings are well and truly centered.
So after you have wound the cable adjuster into itself, so as to make lots of cable freeplay (which you have to do to lube the cable anyhow), you need to set the ramp throw.
(a note here; if you are backing off the adjuster to get a little more cable exposed to make it easier to lube, be careful about pulling the lever, as you could throw the ramp "over centre", meaning you can accidentally rotate it too far, and that is bad, as it may require disassembly to correct)
This needs to be kept to a minimum freeplay, as in half a turn backed off.
You break the lock nut, and turn the screw in until it seats (and you do not have to do that lightly in this case, it is not a carb idle screw).
You can turn it right home so as to be sure that the ramp is fully seated(several times to get the feel), then back it off no more than half a turn. Tighten the locknut.
(another note here; cable routing is important. The cable should pass over the handlebar, and travel down the steering neck as close to parallel as possible. This ensures constant clutch operation, even when turning the bars. HD have been getting a bit lazy about that lately. When I bought my latest bike new, the cable was incorrectly routed, so I told them, and told them why. They never changed it, and the clutch was awful. I rerouted it, and was a big improvement)
Time to adjust the cable.
The stock cable is very strong. This is a very good thing, as all the lever movement is transferred to the release ramp(weak cables flex, and this is movement lost)
With a strong cable, you can easily be fooled into allowing too much freeplay.
Adjust the cable to a minimum freeplay at the point where the cable enters the "perch". Some say a dime(I do not, as I live in a dime free environment), or an 1/8 of an inch(too much for my money)
Things do expand, so if you were to notice that all your adjustment was gone when hot, then it would be too tight. But even at a 1/16, that would never happen.
To correctly assess that amount, you have to hold both the lever and the cable, and move them back and forth together (with hands both facing same way, handlebar style, whether facing the bike or not)
Otherwise you will think you have the cable adjusted well, and it will be loose as a goose.
Idle speed.
Once upon a time, idle speeds were much lower than today, 600 -800. If your idle is 1200, for example, that will not help you.
There is talk of lack of lube with low idle.
What is true is that the faster the engine speed, the more oil pressure.
What is untrue is that if your idle is 1000, then you will not be pumping enough oil, and you engine will blow to bits.
The bike is cold, and it is the first start.
NEVER place the bike in gear to start it, so as to avoid a clunk. I have seen people post this, and it is (clearly) crazy. We also do not want insane engine blipping when cold. But a few mild blips, timed perfectly with the pulling of the clutch lever, will help to throw that overnight oil off.
The moment in time when you have just blipped the engine, and the clutch lever was pulled in, and the revs have just fallen, is the point of least grab between the plates. Seize your moment. If you wait a few seconds, stiction
will rise.
When it is all warmed up, you do not need to blip. as such. but always coinciding with the initial pull in of the lever will help, rather than hinder.
If you inspect the shifter ramp in the transmission, you will see that selecting neutral from second is a lot less likely.
If you have been sitting idling for a while, and you are thinking to yourself, Hmmmmmmm, things might be a little hot and sticky, wish I had gotten into neutral a little sooner, the bump and release will solve your issues.
Make as if you are about to take off, but in such a way that there is no noticeable movement, as in......
Slight raising of revs, slight release of lever, until it "bumps", then whip the lever back in and grab neutral(you will get it with practice)
This is also true.......Careful set-up, and attention to detail and lubing will give you a good result. Normal is when the clutch works like a dream, not a nightmare.
Thread Starter
|
Intermediate
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Started the bike and let it run longer. It was still pulling away when I put it in 1st gear and couldn't get it into neutral. I let it warm up some more and the longer I did, the less it pulled away when putting it in 1st and it became a lot easier to put it in neutral. Took it out for a quick spin and it shifted fine.
Road Master
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,243
Likes: 7
From: MN
Anyone ever have a problem getting their bike into neutral? I have a hell of a time getting my '85 FXRP back into neutral after putting it in 1st and not moving. When I shut it off, it goes right into neutral. As soon as I start it up and put it in 1st, I have to shut it off again to get it back into neutral. The guy who owned the bike before me had a new tranny put in. He upgraded it from the original 4 speed to a Baker 5 speed.
Tourer
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 293
Likes: 7
Meanwhile, my bike, and all the bikes that I service the clutch area on, click in and out of neutral like a dream.
And I don't say that to illustrate how good I am.......... quite the opposite....... as in........
If I can do it, so can you.
Now on an 85 model(and all rubber bikes are at least 5 sp), you have the "abc" type clutch, and the "attitude" of the spring is critical to good clutch operation, and dis-engagement.
Also, you have an "arm" type release, and the setting of the arm so that it operates "over-centre" is also essential. If the centre screw adjustment is incorrect(as in it is positioning the arm in a position that results in less than optimal longitudinal throw), then life is all uphill from there.
The window of release on that style of clutch is "HUGE".
They are noted for being like an on/off switch as far as engagement goes, which means a short take-up area, which in turn means easy neutral finding.
It seems likely you have a combination of worn parts, and poor adjustment/servicing of that area.
People mention all sorts of oil for that area. Everyone has their favourite. I use HD pri lube(now the new combo lube), but you can use any oil that is listed as suitable for a gear drive type application, where there is a clutch involved. 2 stroke trans oil (not 2 stroke motor oil, obviously) can be good here, as it is nice and light, and designed for running gears and a clutch. Shell racing G was one type, and no doubt there are many more.
And I don't say that to illustrate how good I am.......... quite the opposite....... as in........
If I can do it, so can you.
Now on an 85 model(and all rubber bikes are at least 5 sp), you have the "abc" type clutch, and the "attitude" of the spring is critical to good clutch operation, and dis-engagement.
Also, you have an "arm" type release, and the setting of the arm so that it operates "over-centre" is also essential. If the centre screw adjustment is incorrect(as in it is positioning the arm in a position that results in less than optimal longitudinal throw), then life is all uphill from there.
The window of release on that style of clutch is "HUGE".
They are noted for being like an on/off switch as far as engagement goes, which means a short take-up area, which in turn means easy neutral finding.
It seems likely you have a combination of worn parts, and poor adjustment/servicing of that area.
People mention all sorts of oil for that area. Everyone has their favourite. I use HD pri lube(now the new combo lube), but you can use any oil that is listed as suitable for a gear drive type application, where there is a clutch involved. 2 stroke trans oil (not 2 stroke motor oil, obviously) can be good here, as it is nice and light, and designed for running gears and a clutch. Shell racing G was one type, and no doubt there are many more.
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Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,721
Likes: 103
From: St. Louis, MO
Sorry to dig up an old thread but I had the impossible neutral on my new to me 95 Road King and this thread helped.
I've been riding bikes and manual cars for 30 years and it felt like my clutch was dragging just a bit.
So I loosened the clutch cable locknut, unscrewed the adjuster about 1/16, tightened and viola, neutral is easy to find.
Simple to try. Worked for me.
I've been riding bikes and manual cars for 30 years and it felt like my clutch was dragging just a bit.
So I loosened the clutch cable locknut, unscrewed the adjuster about 1/16, tightened and viola, neutral is easy to find.
Simple to try. Worked for me.
Dirt don't hurt
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 21,062
Likes: 4,547
From: Haslet Texas
Sorry to dig up an old thread but I had the impossible neutral on my new to me 95 Road King and this thread helped.
I've been riding bikes and manual cars for 30 years and it felt like my clutch was dragging just a bit.
So I loosened the clutch cable locknut, unscrewed the adjuster about 1/16, tightened and viola, neutral is easy to find.
Simple to try. Worked for me.
I've been riding bikes and manual cars for 30 years and it felt like my clutch was dragging just a bit.
So I loosened the clutch cable locknut, unscrewed the adjuster about 1/16, tightened and viola, neutral is easy to find.
Simple to try. Worked for me.
When you say unscrewed the adjuster are you talking about loosening or tightening the cable?