2011 FLHTK (103 motor). At what point can the fuel control no longer do the job, and I need to spring for a tuner?
A. I remove the cat (stock slip ons)
B. I remove the cat and install a breather (stock slip ons)
C. I replace the exhaust/slip ons and install a breather

Thanks guys...Can always count on you guys for sage advice and snide remarks.

 

Not sure what you mean by "fuel control". Are you talking stock fuel management which is not much management or a fuel controller, like a Techlusion TFI, V&H FuelPak, etc.?

If the former, you will need enhanced fuel management at step 3. A fuel controller will be sufficient and that will allow you to add fuel and "tune" yourself, sort of like re-jetting a carb. Of course a full blown fuel management system like TTS Mastertune would allow fine tuning and timing adjustments the might get a bit more TQ/HP out but those systems cost more plus the additional cost of dyno time to optimize the tune.

Comprende? Pick your poison.

 

I was reffering to stock fuel control. Looks like there's really no way to do this other than suck it up and replace the exhaust, breather, and add a Mastertune, PC, or somesuch. So much for going on the cheap....

 

Once you remove the cat... your 'fuel control' is gone from a stock bike. AFter removing the cat... ANYTHING else done afterwards is moot. The O2 sensors will NOT work.

Better bet is to by a pipe like the Fuelmoto one... The O2s work in THAT pipe.

I have NO clue why folks on this board think removing the cat is a plus... for proper operation of the ECM and the O2s... the bike NEEDS that cat to stop 'cross talk' on the O2 sensors. Removing the cat gains one NO power. PC5s, TFIs, xeids, etc are NOT the way to go on a 2011 bike. Know what? Most on this board are just plain stupid (no... NOT you). Why exactly remove a cat, again? Because some YAHOOSAC saw a need and sells that service? And then... everyone follows like sheep???

NOBODY, and I mean NOBODY removes the cats on any high performance street car anymore. Im talking like ZO6s and such... Why? Because the cats work SO much better in 2011 than they did in 1980 is why.

A TRUE gain would be buy a pipe, buy a REAL tuner like TTS, DJ Power Vision or SEPST and go from there. ANY other tuning product ruins the capabilities of a stock bike. They ALL remove closed loop operation except for the three tuning products I have outlined.

It's a tax... THE Harley Tax, if you will.... once one changes just about ANYTHING on these bikes... a 'tuner' is necessary... And that can be up to a 'hidden' $1000 cost.
But... since you just spent north of $20k, do you REALLY want to ruin the ability of the bikes electronics to do their job? Especially when you don't KNOW what you are doing and are relying on dumbos here to tell you???? Including me? Especially me!

There IS a reason that MOCO (not some dealer) sells the SEPST and NOT an add on... you get that, right? If the MOCO could sell an add on and it worked... wouldn't you think they would sell a SE branded add on?

Since 07 or so... our bike are NO LONGER lawnmowers that any rinky dink yahoo could sell just any damn thing. Would YOU do THIS to a car, if you bought one? A NEW GT Mustang or ZO6? Hell no... well WHY do it on a brand new bike? It is NO LONGER the 'brave new world' of carbs and points. NEW bikes have drive by wire and CAN bus systems... just like cars. EVERYTHING is simply an iput or output on the onboard computer. Just like a brand new Chevy. It's ALL about the fastest data speeds along that bus system... and NOT adding crap that slows that speed down. Throttles; run stop switches; speedo and tachs, etc are ALL just inputs and outputs today.

Long live the 80s... but the 80's are GONE.

DO it RIGHT and it's over... Tuner AND pipe if it was my personal 2011 bike.

On a bike with an actual throttle cable... I think a quite a bit differently. But once DBW is in play... all that add on tuners really do is slow the bus down because the engine management side gets confused. How is THAT good? The new Softails have a CANBus system... that's the latest automotive sheit! That's the stuff where (on the auto side) even power window switches and door locks no longer connect to the motors... they go thru the Bus and the ECM closes the window, etc...The touring frames will have that shortly, I'm sure.

 

OK, you do comprende but from my perspective, the PC is not comparable to the TTS Mastertune which is the next stage of SERT development; same guys. If there is a shortage of local tuning talent in your area the Thundermax with auto tune is also a good option.

I am not as convinced as Truk that the cats in the new bikes are state of the art and/or the stock Harley fuel management system is developed to the same level of sophistication as a Z06. It that were true, we wouldn't need aftermarket fuel management systems. I have to disclaim that fuel mangement systems and tuning is not my long suit and I have a lot to learn and Truk is more knowledgeable in that area and he may be right but I am not convinced yet that removing the cat is a bad thing if removal is complimented by the addition of a real tuner and tuned by a competent tech. I don't believe there are cats in the aftermarket pipes that are delivering good preromance.

 

Thanks Wurk and DJL. My issue isn't necessarily performance, it's HEAT. My "hope" was that removing the CAT would lower the heat value of my right hamstring. But you're right that I shouldn't take shortcuts with a $25K bike. My consternation is that I sunk thousands and thousands into my 07, only to trade it in last year (for the FLHTK). So I promised myself that I would limit the "add ons" this time. But, the tax man is relentless and I will just suck it up. Especially as I'm committed to keeping this bike for at least 5 yrs.

 

It's NOT on the same par as a ZO6... but that cat material is.

Heat sux and the cats MAKE heat to eliminate crap. The Fuelmoto pipes are the correct way to eliminate the heat.

Damn... I HAD a pic of a cat cut out. I can describe it?

At the very end of the head pipes... are the two O2 sensors. Like 1/2 an inch away from the cat material. Two side by side O2s with 1 inch of pipe separating them from each other. The cat material is like a honeycomb. The exhaust gases pass right by its O2... then blows right into the honeycomb.

We have a wobble fire bike... the DEATH of proper O2 functioning is reversion from exhaust gases sucking in fresh O2 between strokes. THe older design having the O2s near the heads made it so the exhaust flow from one cylinder couldn't really impact the O2 on the other cylinder, right? But... MOCO went with a cat in 2010 bikes AND placed the O2s next to the cat, and I assume that was to keep crap lean so cat works best... The NEW placement makes that cat work best.

O2 cannot impact between sensors, because the cat material acts like a further extension of the head pipe... get it? When the rear is sucking O2 back in towards the cylinder... the front cylinder O2 sensor isn't seeing that fresh O2, because of the honeycomb material acts as a 'separator'. With the cat material gone... so is that 'separator'. The WRONG O2 sensor can see the reversion pulling fresh O2 back towards the cylinder.

A pipe like the Fuelmoto pipe has the O2s separated by actual PIPE... so does D&D pipes nowadays, too. Front reversion doesn't effect rear O2 reading when cylinder just fired off.

Want to know what IS cool.... new GT Mustangs. There is NO 'map' in those... no fall back between open and closed. The WHOLE engine management side of the ECM runs on pure math... all the time math... lotsa math. A TRUE self tuning engine!

Our bikes are a good decade behind that stuff. If ever.... would buyers put up with how ugly a MAF system would look? Individual intake runners going to a common intake that is FEET away from the actual engine? With a 'hot wire' sensor on the end of that tube? HAHA!!!

I'm a BIG fan of the Delphi. Sure... it's a generation back from whats on cars nowadays... but that is STILL a generation AHEAD of any ECM on any other bike. And is the WHY we still have an air cooled bike, in this post EPA era. If our bikes have so much computing power... why NOT harness THAT instead of using PCs, etc to dumb em down. THAT is my true rant.... dumbing down what you have on hand..... .... using 'add ons' IS dumbing it down... so would be 'removing' the cat material and nothing else.

HEAT is a byproduct of us having an air cooled bike in 2011. I just feel to eliminate heat... one has to use some forethought LIKE THE OP is doing.... instead of being HACKS.

I know I'm a Dick, too.

 

Another reaon why my newest Harley is six years old. Don't want to deal with cats, TBW, cheesy cranks and some of the other factory "improvement". I doubt I will buy a new one until the MoCo goes water or oil cooled. Good luck.

 

It REALLY changed how one deals with fast cars... all the new stuff... for sure.

I'm pretty comfortable with all of it except for the damn cheesy cranks.

 

I don't agree...I just removed that crap from the pipe on my 2011 and the bike runs cooler, sounds better and doesn't pop-burp-puke, whatever...and I did put the Vied product on my bike before doing this and that did help with heat...but that's purely my experience.

I'm pretty sure the fact that air cooling makes the bikes harder to keep up with changing EPA regs is the reason the cat material was changed to ALL bikes. And there is certainly nothing good about it from a performance stand-point. And, also, I'd LOVE to know the amount of money and time GM spent making performance better on a 'Vette over the years IN SPITE of a catalytic..bet it's a ton.

I don't know, so far so good with my change over...if I didn't actually make anything better, that's fine I suppose...the bike does seem to be running cooler and as long as it's running good, I'm happy!