H-D, Tuners & Warranty
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Seasoned HDF Member
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H-D, Tuners & Warranty
So, most of us know what happened when EPA went after H-D for selling new bikes with Screamin' Eagle Race Tuners and Pro Street Tuners in violation of U.S. Code.
In the Consent Decree, among other things, EPA required H-D to "deny warranty claims for functional defects of powertrain components for any Harley-Davidson vehicle (Model Year 2017 or later) registered in the United States, if any Defendants have any information to show that such vehicle was tuned using a Tuning Product that was not covered by a California ARB Executive Order or otherwise approved by EPA."
My question is how can H-D get away with immediately voiding the powertrain warranty if there is no evidence of functional powertrain defects? For example, you take your bike in to have some type of service performed where they have to connect to the Digital Technician or whichever device they use to determine you have a non-approved tuner. From what I've read, the non-approved tuner sets off alarms and, presto, your powertrain warranty is immediately voided. Are we to assume that running a non-approved tuner immediately causes powertrain defects? Is that how they get away with it?
In the Consent Decree, among other things, EPA required H-D to "deny warranty claims for functional defects of powertrain components for any Harley-Davidson vehicle (Model Year 2017 or later) registered in the United States, if any Defendants have any information to show that such vehicle was tuned using a Tuning Product that was not covered by a California ARB Executive Order or otherwise approved by EPA."
My question is how can H-D get away with immediately voiding the powertrain warranty if there is no evidence of functional powertrain defects? For example, you take your bike in to have some type of service performed where they have to connect to the Digital Technician or whichever device they use to determine you have a non-approved tuner. From what I've read, the non-approved tuner sets off alarms and, presto, your powertrain warranty is immediately voided. Are we to assume that running a non-approved tuner immediately causes powertrain defects? Is that how they get away with it?
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Joined: Apr 2016
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From: Inland NW
Because the non-HD calibrations are not EPA approved, that is how they word this, just like you mentioned. I went round, and round with my dealer on day 1.
They put an aftermarket cam, and exhaust on, and then tuned it with a shitty HD calibration. We had a ton of discussion on it here in the M8 forum,
Sucks, I ditched the whole mess at 1300 miles and said screw the warranty
They put an aftermarket cam, and exhaust on, and then tuned it with a shitty HD calibration. We had a ton of discussion on it here in the M8 forum,
Sucks, I ditched the whole mess at 1300 miles and said screw the warranty
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Seasoned HDF Member
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Because the non-HD calibrations are not EPA approved, that is how they word this, just like you mentioned. I went round, and round with my dealer on day 1.
They put an aftermarket cam, and exhaust on, and then tuned it with a shitty HD calibration. We had a ton of discussion on it here in the M8 forum,
Sucks, I ditched the whole mess at 1300 miles and said screw the warranty
They put an aftermarket cam, and exhaust on, and then tuned it with a shitty HD calibration. We had a ton of discussion on it here in the M8 forum,
Sucks, I ditched the whole mess at 1300 miles and said screw the warranty
This is the same reason I keep my engine stock until after the warranty. I'm not about big power numbers anyway, the bikes out perform dang near everything on the road as they are. It took 9 years before I touched the engine in my Bones.
To answer your question though, they are one slippery slope with what they're doing. A warranty cannot be voided simply by making a modification to something unless that modification was the sole reason for the failure.
My diesel has some modifications and went in for warranty work. I was told everything was covered by one dealer, but my local dealer initially denied my claim. I informed them of the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act 15 U.S.C. 2302 (C). Stating that my part did not cause the failure. They fixed it I was out the door.
HD may have a way of explaining that the tuner can affect the drive train and therefore deny on that basis, but I don't. But, you can certain that if your ABS went to pot under warranty, they could not deny the claim because of the tuner.
Like I said, slippery slope. Most won't fight them. Personally, my bike will never be at the dealer again unless it's warranty issues, and then, I'll photograph every part that needs to be touched to get to it. I have trust issues.
To answer your question though, they are one slippery slope with what they're doing. A warranty cannot be voided simply by making a modification to something unless that modification was the sole reason for the failure.
My diesel has some modifications and went in for warranty work. I was told everything was covered by one dealer, but my local dealer initially denied my claim. I informed them of the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act 15 U.S.C. 2302 (C). Stating that my part did not cause the failure. They fixed it I was out the door.
HD may have a way of explaining that the tuner can affect the drive train and therefore deny on that basis, but I don't. But, you can certain that if your ABS went to pot under warranty, they could not deny the claim because of the tuner.
Like I said, slippery slope. Most won't fight them. Personally, my bike will never be at the dealer again unless it's warranty issues, and then, I'll photograph every part that needs to be touched to get to it. I have trust issues.
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I know the owners manual says "(t)his limited warranty will not apply to any motorcycle" if the bike has "off-road or competition parts installed to enhance performance..."
Is a non-approved tuner necessiarly considered a competition part to enhance performance?
Also, further into the warranty, it goes on to say the warranty will not apply for "Damage caused by...performance-enhancing powertrain components or software..."
If the part (non-approved tuner) has not caused any damage to the powertrain, can they still void the warranty?
So, basically, the more I dig into this voiding warranty issue, it just gets more and more ambiguous the more I try to make sense of it.
If it ever came down to it, it's a battle I don't have the desire or resources to fight. I'll just wait the 7 months until my warranty is up before I install a tuner.
Oh, well, carry on...
Is a non-approved tuner necessiarly considered a competition part to enhance performance?
Also, further into the warranty, it goes on to say the warranty will not apply for "Damage caused by...performance-enhancing powertrain components or software..."
If the part (non-approved tuner) has not caused any damage to the powertrain, can they still void the warranty?
So, basically, the more I dig into this voiding warranty issue, it just gets more and more ambiguous the more I try to make sense of it.
If it ever came down to it, it's a battle I don't have the desire or resources to fight. I'll just wait the 7 months until my warranty is up before I install a tuner.
Oh, well, carry on...
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From: Texas
But the other part is that Harley has a section in your warranty that says (paraphrasing) "Harley is under no obligation to honor this warranty on any vehicle that is not legal to operate on the roads of the territory it's registered in" or something to that effect. Once you tamper with the emissions (by using a non-EPA-approved calibration) you've rendered the bike illegal to operate on the USA's roads. So whether it breaks or not, whether the illegal parts caused the damage or not, doesn't matter -- you putting on those parts made the bike illegal, and they're not under any obligation to honor a warranty on an illegal bike. It's kind of like the trailer hitch clause -- you put on a trailer hitch, your warranty is voided, even if you never use the hitch to pull a trailer. No questions asked, it's just voided period.
The final element is: whether it's legal or not under existing laws, Harley is under court order to do it. Use a tuner, lose the warranty on the powertrain components. That's part of a settlement with the EPA (the rule-making organization), so presumably that makes it legal under the Chevron doctrine? But it doesn't really matter in practical terms -- Harley's under court order to do it, so they have to do it. If there's a legal issue involved, it would have to be (IMO) that the court order itself is illegal, and that would mean needing a lawsuit to overturn the consent decree.
Now here's the fun part -- as of model year 2021, they're not necessarily obligated by court order to continue mandated voiding. IIRC, it said that after 4 model years, the order would (or could) be reviewed and possibly changed. Will it? Who knows, seems doubtful, but you never know.
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From: In front of the computer for now.
Here's my take on the whole situation and I might be way off base but, here goes.
The EPA got wind that a vehicle manufacturer is providing a way to alter an engine that had been previously tested and approved in it's original configuration. The EPA felt that HD was providing something that altered the original specifications. Think about VW's debacle.Their original diesel engine did pass the EPA's emission tests, then they put in a different or modified ECM/BCM that controls those emissions. In order to not get their hand slapped so hard, HD consented to appeasing the EPA by putting the screws to the end user by voiding their warranty and thereby reliving HD of any wrongdoing.
The EPA got wind that a vehicle manufacturer is providing a way to alter an engine that had been previously tested and approved in it's original configuration. The EPA felt that HD was providing something that altered the original specifications. Think about VW's debacle.Their original diesel engine did pass the EPA's emission tests, then they put in a different or modified ECM/BCM that controls those emissions. In order to not get their hand slapped so hard, HD consented to appeasing the EPA by putting the screws to the end user by voiding their warranty and thereby reliving HD of any wrongdoing.
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Here's my take on the whole situation and I might be way off base but, here goes.
The EPA got wind that a vehicle manufacturer is providing a way to alter an engine that had been previously tested and approved in it's original configuration. The EPA felt that HD was providing something that altered the original specifications. Think about VW's debacle.Their original diesel engine did pass the EPA's emission tests, then they put in a different or modified ECM/BCM that controls those emissions. In order to not get their hand slapped so hard, HD consented to appeasing the EPA by putting the screws to the end user by voiding their warranty and thereby reliving HD of any wrongdoing.
The EPA got wind that a vehicle manufacturer is providing a way to alter an engine that had been previously tested and approved in it's original configuration. The EPA felt that HD was providing something that altered the original specifications. Think about VW's debacle.Their original diesel engine did pass the EPA's emission tests, then they put in a different or modified ECM/BCM that controls those emissions. In order to not get their hand slapped so hard, HD consented to appeasing the EPA by putting the screws to the end user by voiding their warranty and thereby reliving HD of any wrongdoing.
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Seasoned HDF Member
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There are three things that apply here. First, yes, putting on parts that are labeled "off-road and competition only, not legal for street use" trigger that exact clause. And yes, that's what the tuner does.
But the other part is that Harley has a section in your warranty that says (paraphrasing) "Harley is under no obligation to honor this warranty on any vehicle that is not legal to operate on the roads of the territory it's registered in" or something to that effect. Once you tamper with the emissions (by using a non-EPA-approved calibration) you've rendered the bike illegal to operate on the USA's roads. So whether it breaks or not, whether the illegal parts caused the damage or not, doesn't matter -- you putting on those parts made the bike illegal, and they're not under any obligation to honor a warranty on an illegal bike. It's kind of like the trailer hitch clause -- you put on a trailer hitch, your warranty is voided, even if you never use the hitch to pull a trailer. No questions asked, it's just voided period.
The final element is: whether it's legal or not under existing laws, Harley is under court order to do it. Use a tuner, lose the warranty on the powertrain components. That's part of a settlement with the EPA (the rule-making organization), so presumably that makes it legal under the Chevron doctrine? But it doesn't really matter in practical terms -- Harley's under court order to do it, so they have to do it. If there's a legal issue involved, it would have to be (IMO) that the court order itself is illegal, and that would mean needing a lawsuit to overturn the consent decree.
Now here's the fun part -- as of model year 2021, they're not necessarily obligated by court order to continue mandated voiding. IIRC, it said that after 4 model years, the order would (or could) be reviewed and possibly changed. Will it? Who knows, seems doubtful, but you never know.
But the other part is that Harley has a section in your warranty that says (paraphrasing) "Harley is under no obligation to honor this warranty on any vehicle that is not legal to operate on the roads of the territory it's registered in" or something to that effect. Once you tamper with the emissions (by using a non-EPA-approved calibration) you've rendered the bike illegal to operate on the USA's roads. So whether it breaks or not, whether the illegal parts caused the damage or not, doesn't matter -- you putting on those parts made the bike illegal, and they're not under any obligation to honor a warranty on an illegal bike. It's kind of like the trailer hitch clause -- you put on a trailer hitch, your warranty is voided, even if you never use the hitch to pull a trailer. No questions asked, it's just voided period.
The final element is: whether it's legal or not under existing laws, Harley is under court order to do it. Use a tuner, lose the warranty on the powertrain components. That's part of a settlement with the EPA (the rule-making organization), so presumably that makes it legal under the Chevron doctrine? But it doesn't really matter in practical terms -- Harley's under court order to do it, so they have to do it. If there's a legal issue involved, it would have to be (IMO) that the court order itself is illegal, and that would mean needing a lawsuit to overturn the consent decree.
Now here's the fun part -- as of model year 2021, they're not necessarily obligated by court order to continue mandated voiding. IIRC, it said that after 4 model years, the order would (or could) be reviewed and possibly changed. Will it? Who knows, seems doubtful, but you never know.
Nevertheless, I know it would be virtually impossible for an average rider to take to task H-D and/or the EPA over the ambiguity in the wording of the Consent Decree and especially the terms of the warranty as it relates to "off-road or competition parts", "enhance performance" and "performance enhancing components or software." There's a lot of room for interpretation in those phrases.