Kinda failed MSF course - need help
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 28,842
Likes: 16,583
From: Wisconsin, USA
Sounds like you had a good Instructor and since he was a) there, and b) trained to Instruct new riders...I strongly suggest you focus on what he said about your performance and avoid confusing the matter by asking other's what they think. I include yours truly in this, even as an MSF/RidersEdge Instructor myself.
So, despite all that I'm getting ready to type
, my best advice is to resist the temptation to seek out and listen to the advice of strangers...well-meaning as we all may be. 
Not only will you get over-loaded...you may get advice that is not "good".
I see you're still reading...so I'll throw in some thoughts I had when I read your post...
1) HEAT - The heat can be and often is a big issue for many. 104F is ROUGH! Esp on the range in jeans/boots/ls shirt/gloves and helmet. Despite attempts to drink plenty of water, it really is next to impossible to get in enough while out on the range in the types of temps you encountered. I'm in Texas and am pretty much well-versed in HEAT.
Dehydration causes fatigue which affects your focus and motor-skills. I've witnessed students "skills" plummet as the day wears on and one particular class that comes to mind (107F), I am confident the heat caused a couple of people to "fail" due to above reasons.
2) Ride Like a Pro DVD - Sorry fellas...gotta go against the grain in this situation. Despite what the many well-meaning bikers here may feel...the "Ride Like a Pro" DVD (FWIW, I'm a "fan" and have watched the videos and practiced the exercises numerous times AND took the class) is fantastic, but not for novices. Yes...it may be chock full of great info, but IMHO, it's just too advanced for the beginner/novice so I wouldn't recommend it until you have a better command of the basic controls. Personally, I feel keeping it simple (think MSF Beginner's class) is what is I would recommend it to you at this point. This is just my opinion, mind you...again, the RLAP course/DVD is excellent, but not so much for the beginner. This is my opinion and comes from going through both the MSF and Rider's Edge Instructor Training and having a better understanding about the why's and where-for's of the MSF curriculum and adult learning.
3) The Friction Zone - the big kahuna! This is what really jumped out at me...bottom line is, you need to have command of the friction zone to succeed in the MSF class. It's pretty much the foundation and all the other exercises are built on it. More often than not...students who don't get a command of it, often are the one's dropping the bikes and/or don't pass the class. There is a reason why it's taught/practiced from exercise 2 on (ex 1 is bike familiarization...no riding). It's super important. Once you "get it", your whole class experience will change.
4) Front braking - not gonna harp here, but this is a big one as I know you know. As important as it is...the FZ is more important to master as a learning block.
So, get that friction zone thing down then work on what your other hand and feet are doing. I think you'll find that you'll improve on this with time/practice/experience anyway (hopefully, not after kissing the pavement as a result of front-braking in a curve) and in time, braking and shifting becomes 2nd nature.
Bottom line...my suggestion is to re-take the class when the weather is more tolerable. I have a feeling you'll sail through with flying colors. It's not uncommon for 2nd timers to be among the "best" riders in the class. Since you're not "scared" away and are eager to get back on the horse, I would guess you are not in the category of those who simply find out motorcycles are not for them, but rather one who, for whatever reason (test anxiety, learning style/pace, heat, mind elsewhere due to other life events, etc) just didn't get it done in one very fast-paced weekend...no harm no foul!!!
Good luck and come back and let us know when you pass!!
p.s...not sure I am on board with the "practice" advice simply because the mc you may use may be too big/powerful/$$ for a learner on top of how you'd get it to a parking lot safely/legally and who would be giving you advice...keep in mind, crash statistics do not favor those taught by a friend/family member. Not saying not to practice...just not real sure about this w/o more info....
So, despite all that I'm getting ready to type
, my best advice is to resist the temptation to seek out and listen to the advice of strangers...well-meaning as we all may be. Not only will you get over-loaded...you may get advice that is not "good".I see you're still reading...so I'll throw in some thoughts I had when I read your post...
1) HEAT - The heat can be and often is a big issue for many. 104F is ROUGH! Esp on the range in jeans/boots/ls shirt/gloves and helmet. Despite attempts to drink plenty of water, it really is next to impossible to get in enough while out on the range in the types of temps you encountered. I'm in Texas and am pretty much well-versed in HEAT.
Dehydration causes fatigue which affects your focus and motor-skills. I've witnessed students "skills" plummet as the day wears on and one particular class that comes to mind (107F), I am confident the heat caused a couple of people to "fail" due to above reasons.
2) Ride Like a Pro DVD - Sorry fellas...gotta go against the grain in this situation. Despite what the many well-meaning bikers here may feel...the "Ride Like a Pro" DVD (FWIW, I'm a "fan" and have watched the videos and practiced the exercises numerous times AND took the class) is fantastic, but not for novices. Yes...it may be chock full of great info, but IMHO, it's just too advanced for the beginner/novice so I wouldn't recommend it until you have a better command of the basic controls. Personally, I feel keeping it simple (think MSF Beginner's class) is what is I would recommend it to you at this point. This is just my opinion, mind you...again, the RLAP course/DVD is excellent, but not so much for the beginner. This is my opinion and comes from going through both the MSF and Rider's Edge Instructor Training and having a better understanding about the why's and where-for's of the MSF curriculum and adult learning.
3) The Friction Zone - the big kahuna! This is what really jumped out at me...bottom line is, you need to have command of the friction zone to succeed in the MSF class. It's pretty much the foundation and all the other exercises are built on it. More often than not...students who don't get a command of it, often are the one's dropping the bikes and/or don't pass the class. There is a reason why it's taught/practiced from exercise 2 on (ex 1 is bike familiarization...no riding). It's super important. Once you "get it", your whole class experience will change.
4) Front braking - not gonna harp here, but this is a big one as I know you know. As important as it is...the FZ is more important to master as a learning block.
So, get that friction zone thing down then work on what your other hand and feet are doing. I think you'll find that you'll improve on this with time/practice/experience anyway (hopefully, not after kissing the pavement as a result of front-braking in a curve) and in time, braking and shifting becomes 2nd nature.
Bottom line...my suggestion is to re-take the class when the weather is more tolerable. I have a feeling you'll sail through with flying colors. It's not uncommon for 2nd timers to be among the "best" riders in the class. Since you're not "scared" away and are eager to get back on the horse, I would guess you are not in the category of those who simply find out motorcycles are not for them, but rather one who, for whatever reason (test anxiety, learning style/pace, heat, mind elsewhere due to other life events, etc) just didn't get it done in one very fast-paced weekend...no harm no foul!!!
Good luck and come back and let us know when you pass!!
p.s...not sure I am on board with the "practice" advice simply because the mc you may use may be too big/powerful/$$ for a learner on top of how you'd get it to a parking lot safely/legally and who would be giving you advice...keep in mind, crash statistics do not favor those taught by a friend/family member. Not saying not to practice...just not real sure about this w/o more info....
Great advice. You must be a good instructor. I just came back from my Riders Edge Plus class, and my instructors were great. I do think 20 years of driving manual transmission cars did help me in the Basic MSF course so even learning to drive a manual transmission car helps (if you can find one).
Hang in there OP. Everyone falls down sometimes. You're only a failure if you don't get back up.
Thread Starter
|
Novice
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 23
Likes: 1
From: Arlington, VA
Amazing tips everyone...thanks everyone
I do intend to take the class again in few weeks - I need the weather to cool off - I know I was very close to dehydration - I started to feel headaches near the end of the day (even though I was drinking tons of water, but I was sweating too much...I know I was more distracted with clothes fully drenched in sweat)...after I left the course - I sat in the car for like 45 min with full AC blast, changed my shirt and drank water like a camel to cool off).
I went from bicycles to car (automatic straight) - never really rode a bike as the driver...passenger yes, but never at the controls....and I sure was caught off guard about its control management of gears. Yes, I need to practice in an empty lot and/or dirt areas.
Just to keep myself motivated - I just went to the Harley dealer just to look at bikes, just to remind myself one day soon that one of these badboys will be ridden by me (even if it is riding in an empty street for years...I will take baby steps).
All of you ride safe and stay tuned about my passing the course soon.
peace
tron2
I do intend to take the class again in few weeks - I need the weather to cool off - I know I was very close to dehydration - I started to feel headaches near the end of the day (even though I was drinking tons of water, but I was sweating too much...I know I was more distracted with clothes fully drenched in sweat)...after I left the course - I sat in the car for like 45 min with full AC blast, changed my shirt and drank water like a camel to cool off).
I went from bicycles to car (automatic straight) - never really rode a bike as the driver...passenger yes, but never at the controls....and I sure was caught off guard about its control management of gears. Yes, I need to practice in an empty lot and/or dirt areas.
Just to keep myself motivated - I just went to the Harley dealer just to look at bikes, just to remind myself one day soon that one of these badboys will be ridden by me (even if it is riding in an empty street for years...I will take baby steps).
All of you ride safe and stay tuned about my passing the course soon.
peace
tron2
Cruiser
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 248
Likes: 3
From: NYC
LMAO. I don't think you'd practice jumping over cars unsuccessfully for two days, but if you did somebody should certainly to tell you to stop. And we're not talking about doing stunts. We're talking about being able to give the bike some gas and let out on the clutch without stalling it.
I'm also curious about the "kinda" attitude toward flunking. What's next? "kinda" highsiding on a curve? "kinda" killing the engine when the light turns green then "kinda" getting run over by the inattentive cager behind you? There's a lot of black and white on two wheels and it usually comes at you pretty damned fast. Not "kinda" fast. And it doesn't forgive you for being a newly minted safety course grad.
To switch gears a little (no pun intended)...is this a big issue in the beginner courses? I'm sure since almost all cars have automatic transmissions a lot of people under 30 have no clue how to operate a clutch, but I'm just curious if a significant number of people have a hard time getting the knack of it.
I'm also curious about the "kinda" attitude toward flunking. What's next? "kinda" highsiding on a curve? "kinda" killing the engine when the light turns green then "kinda" getting run over by the inattentive cager behind you? There's a lot of black and white on two wheels and it usually comes at you pretty damned fast. Not "kinda" fast. And it doesn't forgive you for being a newly minted safety course grad.
To switch gears a little (no pun intended)...is this a big issue in the beginner courses? I'm sure since almost all cars have automatic transmissions a lot of people under 30 have no clue how to operate a clutch, but I'm just curious if a significant number of people have a hard time getting the knack of it.
I understand his "kinda " remark. He hasn't retested yet and for all we know he might have failed by 1 point or something.
Cruiser
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 247
Likes: 1
From: East Central Florida
A large percentage of younger drivers have never driven a manual trans car, so this concept and coordination of slowly releasing one thing as you slowly increase another thing and at the same time changing gears takes time to grasp. A lot more time than the 15 minutes or so during the range time, which is all the time you get during lesson 2 and 3 when you straddle walk and ride slow straight across the range 3 or 4 times before they are off doing the other skills that require you to already know the zone.
I took the MSF Weekend course having never been on a motorcycle but I had driven a manual for years and am very comfortable and balanced on mountain bikes. So first I read all I could on shifting and basic motorcycle controls so I wasn't going into this clueless.
My big concern was the slow speed maneuvers inside the box like the figure eights and S curves. I'm glad I'm not the only one silly enough to take my mountain bike to a parking lot several times the week before the test doing very very slow, tighter and tighter figure eights and slow speed U and S turns over and over until I was totally comfortable and confident in the maneuvers we would do. Sounds strange but it really did help with slow speed balance when the time came to do those same moves on the 500 buells. Give it a try, it can't hurt.
Also, during the class when everyone else was sitting in line with our bikes running waiting their turn to do the skill, I was very carefully moving my clutch in and out of the zone. Inching my bike back and forth while in line which gave me the extra practice with the zone I needed I guess.
I would recommend you seek out an instructor through the MSF Sponsor or HD dealer where you took the class that will work with you for several hours one on one so that you gain the seat time, good habits and confidence that you won't get just by just re-taking the course. Again, they don't give you much time at all to master the fundamentals if you have never done them before.
I took the MSF Weekend course having never been on a motorcycle but I had driven a manual for years and am very comfortable and balanced on mountain bikes. So first I read all I could on shifting and basic motorcycle controls so I wasn't going into this clueless.
My big concern was the slow speed maneuvers inside the box like the figure eights and S curves. I'm glad I'm not the only one silly enough to take my mountain bike to a parking lot several times the week before the test doing very very slow, tighter and tighter figure eights and slow speed U and S turns over and over until I was totally comfortable and confident in the maneuvers we would do. Sounds strange but it really did help with slow speed balance when the time came to do those same moves on the 500 buells. Give it a try, it can't hurt.
Also, during the class when everyone else was sitting in line with our bikes running waiting their turn to do the skill, I was very carefully moving my clutch in and out of the zone. Inching my bike back and forth while in line which gave me the extra practice with the zone I needed I guess.
I would recommend you seek out an instructor through the MSF Sponsor or HD dealer where you took the class that will work with you for several hours one on one so that you gain the seat time, good habits and confidence that you won't get just by just re-taking the course. Again, they don't give you much time at all to master the fundamentals if you have never done them before.
Last edited by Saltwaterwop; Jul 24, 2011 at 08:50 PM.
Amazing tips everyone...thanks everyone
I do intend to take the class again in few weeks - I need the weather to cool off - I know I was very close to dehydration - I started to feel headaches near the end of the day (even though I was drinking tons of water, but I was sweating too much...I know I was more distracted with clothes fully drenched in sweat)...after I left the course - I sat in the car for like 45 min with full AC blast, changed my shirt and drank water like a camel to cool off).
I went from bicycles to car (automatic straight) - never really rode a bike as the driver...passenger yes, but never at the controls....and I sure was caught off guard about its control management of gears. Yes, I need to practice in an empty lot and/or dirt areas.
Just to keep myself motivated - I just went to the Harley dealer just to look at bikes, just to remind myself one day soon that one of these badboys will be ridden by me (even if it is riding in an empty street for years...I will take baby steps).
All of you ride safe and stay tuned about my passing the course soon.
peace
tron2
I do intend to take the class again in few weeks - I need the weather to cool off - I know I was very close to dehydration - I started to feel headaches near the end of the day (even though I was drinking tons of water, but I was sweating too much...I know I was more distracted with clothes fully drenched in sweat)...after I left the course - I sat in the car for like 45 min with full AC blast, changed my shirt and drank water like a camel to cool off).
I went from bicycles to car (automatic straight) - never really rode a bike as the driver...passenger yes, but never at the controls....and I sure was caught off guard about its control management of gears. Yes, I need to practice in an empty lot and/or dirt areas.
Just to keep myself motivated - I just went to the Harley dealer just to look at bikes, just to remind myself one day soon that one of these badboys will be ridden by me (even if it is riding in an empty street for years...I will take baby steps).
All of you ride safe and stay tuned about my passing the course soon.
peace
tron2
Road Warrior
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,432
Likes: 0
From: Central Florida, USA
A lot of the dealers with the riding course also offer private lessons. You might consider taking an hour lesson just to go over the issues you're having. And get in some just riding time w/ o the structure of the class. Don't get discouraged. It's just a matter of practice and repetition.
I found the friction zone once with my wife........We just added more lube.
Problem solved.
Problem solved.
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Road Warrior
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,468
Likes: 4
From: South Carolina
There's more to riding than zigzaging around pylons in a parking lot. I don't get the premise of the MSF course. They teach a guy how to ride in a parking lot then he thinks he knows how to ride, since he passed the course and goes and hits a guard rail on an off ramp from the freeway, or drives off the road on a windy road because he never learned to ride on a highway.
Road Warrior
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,468
Likes: 4
From: South Carolina
Please remember that as stated before water is not enough. Overhydration or hyper-hydration or water intoxication...whatever you want to call it...there are other names for it as well, but it is just as bad as dehydration. If you are not replacing the electrolytes and salts that your body needs, you will still become a casualty.
with a normal diet ,water is fine since there is nothing grueling about being outside while its warm.