Timing adjustments and Timing patterns
Logs, software, graphs, & scatter plots are very much a part of the tuning tuning world. It all comes down to the toolset the individual doing the tuning with is familiar with and their ability to interpret the data. My suggestion to those that do not care for this type of tuning discussion or do not like a certain product or tuning platform is to simply move on and if necessary start a thread of your own. Also note, in the not so distant future we will be going much further into EFI tuning on various levels in this section of HDforums starting with the basics.
__________________
Jamie Long / Fuel Moto USA
The USA's Leader V-Twin EFI & Performance www.fuelmotousa.com
Contact 920-423-3309
Email jamie@fuelmotousa.com
Jamie Long / Fuel Moto USA
The USA's Leader V-Twin EFI & Performance www.fuelmotousa.com
Contact 920-423-3309
Email jamie@fuelmotousa.com
Thread Starter
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Road Master
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 773
Likes: 124
From: Between purgatory and retirement
Using plots to adjust VE tables
It appears to be more the shared exhaust.
–---------------
Referring to your post # 42 https://www.hdforums.com/forum/ignit...l#post14948477 of this thread,
and in particular this plot http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/...othing%202.png
To put this another way:
Hypothetical situation.
You do not have or are not using any type of auto tune. You are manually tuning the VE tables.
You set your AFR table to 13 across the board (similar to what an auto tuner unit does) and log a run.
When viewing the plot you notice those blue dots (rich areas) so you put your mouse on them, read the RPM and MAP at that location, then go to your VE table at that location and slightly lower the value in the indicated cell (thus decreasing the fuel that will be delivered there,) then move to the next dot, etc. Then do another run and see how close you came. You repeat that until all the dots are that pale green to yellow (your target AFR of 13).
If there were red dots (lean areas) you would increase the cell values. And I would imagine you would take note of what cells you changed, and areas that your run did not hit you would try to blend those areas with the ones you changed.
Your goal is to make as many of the dots as possible that pale green, which would indicate that your resulting AFR is the same as your target AFR, which would mean your VE tables are now dialed in.
Now I know why auto tune is so great!
*Just keep in mind, this requires measured AFR in your logs. For PV users this would mean either having a TT or Auto Tune Pro connected with wide band sensors. As Jamie from Fuel Moto said in other posts, the PV basic with narrow band sensors can not log measured AFR ( but it will auto tune the VE tables!) But this does explain exactly how one would go about using scatter plots to either adjust manually or to tweak VE tables.
.
Last edited by IKnowNot; Mar 19, 2016 at 03:17 PM. Reason: make it easier for future readers to find referenced links
Road Master
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,177
Likes: 23
That's what I thought, just wanted to check since it was brought up.
–---------------
Referring to your post # 42 of this thread.
To put this another way:
Hypothetical situation.
You do not have or are not using any type of auto tune. You are manually tuning the VE tables.
You set your AFR table to 13 across the board (similar to what an auto tuner unit does) and log a run.
When viewing the plot you notice those blue dots (rich areas) so you put your mouse on them, read the RPM and MAP at that location, then go to your VE table at that location and slightly lower the value in the indicated cell (thus decreasing the fuel that will be delivered there,) then move to the next dot, etc. Then do another run and see how close you came. You repeat that until all the dots are that pale green to yellow (your target AFR of 13).
If there were red dots (lean areas) you would increase the cell values. And I would imagine you would take note of what cells you changed, and areas that your run did not hit you would try to blend those areas with the ones you changed.
Your goal is to make as many of the dots as possible that pale green, which would indicate that your resulting AFR is the same as your target AFR, which would mean your VE tables are now dialed in.
Is that correct?
Now I know why auto tune is so great!
–---------------
Referring to your post # 42 of this thread.
To put this another way:
Hypothetical situation.
You do not have or are not using any type of auto tune. You are manually tuning the VE tables.
You set your AFR table to 13 across the board (similar to what an auto tuner unit does) and log a run.
When viewing the plot you notice those blue dots (rich areas) so you put your mouse on them, read the RPM and MAP at that location, then go to your VE table at that location and slightly lower the value in the indicated cell (thus decreasing the fuel that will be delivered there,) then move to the next dot, etc. Then do another run and see how close you came. You repeat that until all the dots are that pale green to yellow (your target AFR of 13).
If there were red dots (lean areas) you would increase the cell values. And I would imagine you would take note of what cells you changed, and areas that your run did not hit you would try to blend those areas with the ones you changed.
Your goal is to make as many of the dots as possible that pale green, which would indicate that your resulting AFR is the same as your target AFR, which would mean your VE tables are now dialed in.
Is that correct?
Now I know why auto tune is so great!
I keep a close eye on what the ECU is doing. I tend to never blindly trust things like that. You can find settings that were set incorrectly. You can find huge correction that are a response to a leaking exhaust. You can find dead o2 sensors.... All sorts of things come up on this sport.
I have no fear finding patterns in the data that may need to be over ridden by hand tuning. It is all no big deal, but you have to be willing to look at the data. You can elect to purchase all of this from Jamie at FuelMotoUSA and let him glance at the data. Remember it is your bike and you can do things any way you get joy from owning the bike. I enjoy tuning and helping other people learn to tune. That is just me.
I am bring up 3 race cars from scratch this spring where nothing is pre set in any of the 100s of settings. All three tunes are being done just for the fun of it. I enjoy that feeling when the owner comes back off course and I pop the data card out of the ECU and walk back a few min later and just say try this.... I don't charge anybody as that takes all of the joy out of it.
Andy
Last edited by whittlebeast; Mar 17, 2016 at 05:31 PM.
Road Master
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 858
Likes: 140
From: USA
The problem with coming up with a cookbook method is
With or narrow bands or wide bands
Closed loop on or off
Long term trims on or off
Power Vision, Target Tune, Thunder Max or TTS
Hand tuning or auto tuning
Sportster, V Rod or BT
Speed Density (MAP) or Alpha-N (TPS)
That is a bunch of combinations.
With or narrow bands or wide bands
Closed loop on or off
Long term trims on or off
Power Vision, Target Tune, Thunder Max or TTS
Hand tuning or auto tuning
Sportster, V Rod or BT
Speed Density (MAP) or Alpha-N (TPS)
That is a bunch of combinations.
Narrow bands
Closed loop on
Adaptive fuel on
Power Vision
Hand tuning
Twin cam
MAP TBW
If you could provide the basic steps to walk me through getting started, I'm sure I could figure out the rest.
Thanks.
Road Master
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 858
Likes: 140
From: USA
Logs, software, graphs, & scatter plots are very much a part of the tuning tuning world. It all comes down to the toolset the individual doing the tuning with is familiar with and their ability to interpret the data. My suggestion to those that do not care for this type of tuning discussion or do not like a certain product or tuning platform is to simply move on and if necessary start a thread of your own. Also note, in the not so distant future we will be going much further into EFI tuning on various levels in this section of HDforums starting with the basics.
Thanks.
Road Master
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,177
Likes: 23
Post up a log in a new thread. This one is misnamed to do a "Help my dial in the fuel please".
Also post the tune you are running. Jamie is really good at snooping out settings issues as he does that stuff all day long. I tend to be stronger at looking at the logs and finding irregularities. Setting up filters and data calcs is easy. You will catch right on. Getting started is the hard part.
Andy
Also post the tune you are running. Jamie is really good at snooping out settings issues as he does that stuff all day long. I tend to be stronger at looking at the logs and finding irregularities. Setting up filters and data calcs is easy. You will catch right on. Getting started is the hard part.
Andy
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Road Master
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 858
Likes: 140
From: USA
Post up a log in a new thread. This one is misnamed to do a "Help my dial in the fuel please".
Also post the tune you are running. Jamie is really good at snooping out settings issues as he does that stuff all day long. I tend to be stronger at looking at the logs and finding irregularities. Setting up filters and data calcs is easy. You will catch right on. Getting started is the hard part.
Andy
Also post the tune you are running. Jamie is really good at snooping out settings issues as he does that stuff all day long. I tend to be stronger at looking at the logs and finding irregularities. Setting up filters and data calcs is easy. You will catch right on. Getting started is the hard part.
Andy
Send me a PM with the instructions on how to use the software. I'm not really looking for help with my MAP. I'm looking for help and instructions on how to use the software.
Thanks.
Road Master
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,177
Likes: 23
Here is a demo of MLV that the guys at MLV sent me. I had not seen this one... Not bad.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXyV...ature=youtu.be
Andy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXyV...ature=youtu.be
Andy