Power Vision Information Thread
Novice
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
From: Northern Colorado
Thanks for the info Jamie! I've played with it a bit and it appears almost all cells are less than 1.5% off. A very big testament to the accuracy of your provided maps.
If you are using PV Tune Basic the area you are tuning must be set to 14.6 or on Lambda calibrations .980-1.02 Lambda which will enable closed loop.
On AFR calibration we generally set the bias table to 700. The stoich value in PV tuner applies to Lambda based calibrations, on AFR calibration you control this with the bias table manually.
You can log as many channels as you want and they do not need to be in order, however the more you log the larger the files become and PV log tuner will take longer for them to load and calculate the edits. I recommend for best results logging the basic required channels and if needed adding a few of your own if desired. I have found logging in 15-20 minute sessions works about the best.
Because the timing is corrected using the adaptive knock retard, PV tuner is only able to correct it by removing advance based on knock events. You can generally watch the events and start adding in 2-3 degree intervals.
On AFR calibration we generally set the bias table to 700. The stoich value in PV tuner applies to Lambda based calibrations, on AFR calibration you control this with the bias table manually.
You can log as many channels as you want and they do not need to be in order, however the more you log the larger the files become and PV log tuner will take longer for them to load and calculate the edits. I recommend for best results logging the basic required channels and if needed adding a few of your own if desired. I have found logging in 15-20 minute sessions works about the best.
Because the timing is corrected using the adaptive knock retard, PV tuner is only able to correct it by removing advance based on knock events. You can generally watch the events and start adding in 2-3 degree intervals.
Advanced
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 62
Likes: 1
well i went out and got a few logs, all the cells that the log tuner picked up were all around .8~.9% which is well below the 2%. I did apply the tune on log tuner just to see the changes and some of the VE cell went from around 115 down to around 90. here is a screen shot to see the changes that were applied you can see from 2000-3000rpm and 5-15% columns where it dropped the VE. Should it be dropping it that much with a .8~.9 difference or am i doing something wrong?
Cruiser
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 125
Likes: 0
From: Rowlett, TX
I may be wrong... I just got my PV and ran my first logs today.... But I think the .8 or .9 values actually mean (.8 x Original Value) or (.9 x original value). So, if your original table value was 100, and the new value would be 80 or 90. It threw me off too...
Cruiser
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 125
Likes: 0
From: Rowlett, TX
I noticed that the gear ratios differ between the FM and the stock tunes. 1st and 2nd are the same in both. 3rd and 4th are both .00098 smaller numerically on the stock tune, and 5th and 6th are .00294 and .00297 smaller, respectively, on the stock tune. If the gear ratio is actually a reflection of the mechanical gear ratios of the motorcycle (an assumption, on my part), then they shoud be the same, right? The fact that they're not makes me wonder if perhaps the values in the FM tune apply to a different year, or different engine family (my bike is a 2011 Dyna SG). The differences are small, to be sure, but there's no point in me correcting the speedo calibration values later if these numbers are wrong to begin with. Obviously, my question is, should these numbers match?
I re-applied my stock tune, and it went back to working fine.
Thinking that the gear ratio differences I mentioned above might be the culprit, I changed the gear ratios in the FM tune to match what they were in the stock tune. I was sure that was going to take care of it, but it didn't... the speedo worked exactly the same as it did before.
My next step will be to copy all the table values from the FM tune into the stock tune and save it as a new tune, and see if that fixes the speedo. But I'm sure open to other suggestions.
Novice
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
I've been playing with the PV Log tuner software for the past few days. I've made quite a few logs and put them into the log tuner software. All of the changes I have seen are being made to the VE front and VE rear tables in the closed loop ranges of the lambda table.
My question is can some explain to me how the VE table influences the mix, when you are running in closed loop? My understanding was in "Closed Loop" the Air-Fuel Ratio (Lambda) table was in control.
My question is can some explain to me how the VE table influences the mix, when you are running in closed loop? My understanding was in "Closed Loop" the Air-Fuel Ratio (Lambda) table was in control.
Cruiser
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 125
Likes: 0
From: Rowlett, TX
I've been playing with the PV Log tuner software for the past few days. I've made quite a few logs and put them into the log tuner software. All of the changes I have seen are being made to the VE front and VE rear tables in the closed loop ranges of the lambda table.
My question is can some explain to me how the VE table influences the mix, when you are running in closed loop? My understanding was in "Closed Loop" the Air-Fuel Ratio (Lambda) table was in control.
My question is can some explain to me how the VE table influences the mix, when you are running in closed loop? My understanding was in "Closed Loop" the Air-Fuel Ratio (Lambda) table was in control.
I'm not an expert... and this may be wrong....
As I understand it, the VE tables are ALWAYS used to deliver the A/F mixture... But when the machine is running in closed loop, the ECM reads info from the NBo2 sensors and adjusts the mixture accordingly so it maintains the A/F ratio specified in the AFR table. It stores these 'adjustments' in the adaptive fuel table, and uses them to create a profile that it applies when the bike is started.
However, when it's outside of the closed loop areas, the ECM doesn't (can't?) use the o2 sensors to read the actual AFR. So, it simply uses the values in the VE tables, and assumes that they've been calibrated (using a dyno with a sniffer) to produce the AFR in the table.
This is how I understand it. And if you're like me, that will make you ask why we don't simply set our AFR to stoich everywhere, and leave it that way? I haven't fully figured that out yet.
Novice
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
there are 2, one for calibrations that are exposed as a ratio 'AFR' and one for
lambda)
From what I've read "beginning in 2010 calibrations for Drive by wire bikes changed from AFR-based fuel control to Lambda based"
So to answer your question depending on what bike/year you have you need to set it accordingly. Example, I have a 2010 Road King which is Drive by wire. So I need to set my bike to log "Set Lambda".
There is also another way to tell(at least on my bike).. When I logged both, I only get values in the Set Lambda column, the Set AFR column is all blank..
Last edited by Harleyhiker; May 29, 2011 at 06:20 AM.
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Novice
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
I'm not an expert... and this may be wrong....
As I understand it, the VE tables are ALWAYS used to deliver the A/F mixture... But when the machine is running in closed loop, the ECM reads info from the NBo2 sensors and adjusts the mixture accordingly so it maintains the A/F ratio specified in the AFR table. It stores these 'adjustments' in the adaptive fuel table, and uses them to create a profile that it applies when the bike is started.
However, when it's outside of the closed loop areas, the ECM doesn't (can't?) use the o2 sensors to read the actual AFR. So, it simply uses the values in the VE tables, and assumes that they've been calibrated (using a dyno with a sniffer) to produce the AFR in the table.
This is how I understand it. And if you're like me, that will make you ask why we don't simply set our AFR to stoich everywhere, and leave it that way? I haven't fully figured that out yet.
As I understand it, the VE tables are ALWAYS used to deliver the A/F mixture... But when the machine is running in closed loop, the ECM reads info from the NBo2 sensors and adjusts the mixture accordingly so it maintains the A/F ratio specified in the AFR table. It stores these 'adjustments' in the adaptive fuel table, and uses them to create a profile that it applies when the bike is started.
However, when it's outside of the closed loop areas, the ECM doesn't (can't?) use the o2 sensors to read the actual AFR. So, it simply uses the values in the VE tables, and assumes that they've been calibrated (using a dyno with a sniffer) to produce the AFR in the table.
This is how I understand it. And if you're like me, that will make you ask why we don't simply set our AFR to stoich everywhere, and leave it that way? I haven't fully figured that out yet.
"When in closed-loop mode, the Delphi ECM will adapt to engine and environmental changes to maintain a consistent AFR. This works by the ECM first using the VE table to calculate how much fuel to deliver to hit the targeted AFR value. It then uses the O2 sensor to determine what the AFR actually is. If there is a difference, the ECM makes an adjustment and stores the difference in a “Adaptive Fuel Value” (AFV) cell for that particular RPM-MAP load region (there are up to 24 AFV cells per cylinder depending on the calibration). Over time, the AFV cells will develop a correction profile that is applied to the fuel calculation for each load region. These values are saved in the non-volatile EEPROM memory and will be reloaded each time the bike is started."
"Because of the time required for the AFV cells to learn, we want the AFR calculation to be as accurate as possible to prevent a “hiccup” while the system learns - for that reason (and others), the VE tables must be calibrated to match the engine."
need help.. finally connected my PV to my bike after several months having it... unit is married and i did update the frimware... i went for a 10 min ride and wanted to try to see the logs... i cannot see the all the options as described in the Log user manual and create a PVV file using my WinPV software.. all i see in column for Air flow icon is as well as create the file so i can open the logs from the log viewer program.
ENGINE DISPLACEMENT,IDLE RPM,IDLE RPM adder.. i do not see selection as per below instructions...
Create a "Power Vision Value File" (.pvv). The .pvv file needs to contain the
following
• VE Front
• VE Rear
• Spark Advance Front
• Spark Advance Rear
• Set AFR table (Lambda/Stoich)
what am i doing incorrectly ?
I would like to get familiar more with the PV before i complete my Stage 1 AC and power duals and slip ons...
ENGINE DISPLACEMENT,IDLE RPM,IDLE RPM adder.. i do not see selection as per below instructions...
Create a "Power Vision Value File" (.pvv). The .pvv file needs to contain the
following
• VE Front
• VE Rear
• Spark Advance Front
• Spark Advance Rear
• Set AFR table (Lambda/Stoich)
what am i doing incorrectly ?
I would like to get familiar more with the PV before i complete my Stage 1 AC and power duals and slip ons...
Last edited by papifun; May 29, 2011 at 08:52 AM.