Power Vision Information Thread
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Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
From: Arkansas
When you say it gets worse, what do you mean? What are seeing after you run autotune? If you posted this earlier, I apologize, I haven't seen it. I would be willing to look at your before and after map with the symptoms to help determine what is going on if you want. Sent me a PM if you like.
The one time I have seen tuning really make a map worse was when WB O2 sensors were connected incorrectly to the autotune module. The feedback from the rear was being interpreted for the front and vice versa. The tune would get further and further off. Are you using stock O2 sensors to tune or the WB autotune module?
The one time I have seen tuning really make a map worse was when WB O2 sensors were connected incorrectly to the autotune module. The feedback from the rear was being interpreted for the front and vice versa. The tune would get further and further off. Are you using stock O2 sensors to tune or the WB autotune module?
Road Captain
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 531
Likes: 4
From: Chile Flats, AZ
+1
The one time I have seen tuning really make a map worse was when WB O2 sensors were connected incorrectly to the autotune module. The feedback from the rear was being interpreted for the front and vice versa. The tune would get further and further off. Are you using stock O2 sensors to tune or the WB autotune module?
runability went down hill to the point I didn't know if I'd make it to the next town;
finally pulled over and reflashed the last map I knew was good for the rest of the trip.
Checking when I got home, found the front/rear sensor lines were reversed.
After that, all good...
Road Master
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 876
Likes: 65
From: CT
Mike....now i think your over thinking this...here why i say this...if i understand correctly....your tune was fine. Then you started hearing ping. your logs showed nothing. You put a new set of plugs in and now you see knock events. i would say you always realy had thoes events. You spark system was obviously not up to snuff for one reason or another. Same thing i had. As soon as i put new plugs in the knock went away. i have not run another log to check if retard events are still happening but the knocking i could hear went away. If it were me i would tune the spark to how you want it. Continue on that way. The spark problems we had are not going to tune correctly. so we are kind of back to the drawing board.
Im in mass. i am pretty sure we have the same gas you have in CT. I dont think its the gas.
Im in mass. i am pretty sure we have the same gas you have in CT. I dont think its the gas.
Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 569
Likes: 0
From: USA
stailjim61, I have a question about getting rid of excessive vibes based on your advice here. Ever since my dyno, I've had a significant amount of vibration (blurry mirrors, vibes in the seat and pegs) between 2400 and 2650 rpm. Above that range, everything is wicked smooth.
I've run my logs through LT and show no knock events in those rpms and 30-50 KPa. Do you still recommend pulling a couple degrees even though there are no knock events? Would adding a couple degrees make the vibes worse?
Thanks.
I've run my logs through LT and show no knock events in those rpms and 30-50 KPa. Do you still recommend pulling a couple degrees even though there are no knock events? Would adding a couple degrees make the vibes worse?
Thanks.
What I do if I feel something weird in a certain area is advance until it pings. This way I know where that threshold is. Then I start experimenting by pulling a degree or 2 and see how the bike responds. For my bike I was feeling it in the floorboards at cruise. Ended up pulling out 2 degrees from where I was and it went away. So whether you add or subtract I guess would be answered by if you already know where the ping threshold is for that area...then start pulling a degree or 2 and see how it feels.
One thing to remember about timing is there's no way for us to know what peak or optimum is, other than feel. So my philosophy, right or wrong, is this. If I know it starts to ping at 40, there's my threshold. At 39 it doesn't ping but I feel a buzz or vibe. And at 38 it feels nice. Then I run 38. The bike feels better and I feel better knowing I have a 2 degree buffer before it starts yelling at me. I concentrate more on how the bike feels and responds (and the ping threshold) moreso than what the actual degree number is. Obviously, you don't want to be yanking out 6 or 7 degrees, but if a couple of degrees changes things that's how I end.
Last edited by stailjim61; Oct 9, 2013 at 12:42 AM.
Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 569
Likes: 0
From: USA
How many tune runs have you made? When you say VE's go down, what % reduction are you talking about? How many cells are going down? Is it happening on both cylinders? I'd give it a chance to settle down before getting too excited about the numbers.
Road Master
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,086
Likes: 5
From: London, UK
I'd agree with checking the cables to your O2 sensors. Note that they might be wrong at either or both end, so check at the sensor and ECM end of the cable. Remember: Black to back. (Grey to front doesn't have quite the same ring to it :-)
Road Warrior
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,549
Likes: 18
From: Upstate SC
Funny you mention that; I experienced that very thing (not mentioning any names) right after my ATPro WB system was installed. Headed out of town figuring I'd get some good tuning in....
runability went down hill to the point I didn't know if I'd make it to the next town;
finally pulled over and reflashed the last map I knew was good for the rest of the trip.
Checking when I got home, found the front/rear sensor lines were reversed.
After that, all good...
runability went down hill to the point I didn't know if I'd make it to the next town;
finally pulled over and reflashed the last map I knew was good for the rest of the trip.
Checking when I got home, found the front/rear sensor lines were reversed.
After that, all good...
The other thing I have seen is caused from reversion from the exhausts. You can get inaccurate readings at decel and idle with some pipes. That was really bad on my 2008 FLHT so I would copy the VEs in the second column back over the first column after tuning. Just another thought... but I would check the cables first. I have seen that more than once.
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Road Master
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,086
Likes: 5
From: London, UK
I didn't mention any names either The other thing I have seen is caused from reversion from the exhausts. You can get inaccurate readings at decel and idle with some pipes. That was really bad on my 2008 FLHT so I would copy the VEs in the second column back over the first column after tuning. Just another thought... but I would check the cables first. I have seen that more than once.
The other thing I have seen is caused from reversion from the exhausts. You can get inaccurate readings at decel and idle with some pipes. That was really bad on my 2008 FLHT so I would copy the VEs in the second column back over the first column after tuning. Just another thought... but I would check the cables first. I have seen that more than once.
Road Master
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 876
Likes: 65
From: CT
Mike....now i think your over thinking this...here why i say this...if i understand correctly....your tune was fine. Then you started hearing ping. your logs showed nothing. You put a new set of plugs in and now you see knock events. i would say you always realy had thoes events. You spark system was obviously not up to snuff for one reason or another. Same thing i had. As soon as i put new plugs in the knock went away. i have not run another log to check if retard events are still happening but the knocking i could hear went away. If it were me i would tune the spark to how you want it. Continue on that way. The spark problems we had are not going to tune correctly. so we are kind of back to the drawing board.
Im in mass. i am pretty sure we have the same gas you have in CT. I don't think its the gas.
Im in mass. i am pretty sure we have the same gas you have in CT. I don't think its the gas.
Well I pulled 1.5* from 2750 to 5000 in the 60 to 100 KPA columns. I went for another run hitting that high load area as much as I could on the highway, and still no spark knock events and I heard no pings!!
I'm going to pull another .5* to add a buffer and leave it alone.
I get to start again after I put in the new cams this winter.