early xlch: impossible design or fixable?
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early xlch: impossible design or fixable?
Well Ive discuseed this before but now it has been a long time since I have even started this bike. A 68 xlch with mag and kick start only. Its been at least 3-4 months now. (I also have a shovel and a jap rat bike). I had been pop starting it until I noticed that it started becoming more difficult to do that. Then one day I couldn't even pop it. Took the kicker case off and realized that I had mangled the clutch release lever from pop starting it. I replaced it with a new one. I also recently realized that the starter spring was not secured in the notch on the starter gear. I fixed that but I cant get the bike to start. This seems to be an incredibly poorly designed kicker. I love the way this bike looks runs and sounds. I would absolutely hate selling it but I have never been able to ride it very much in the year and a half that Ive owned it. It definitely has compression(I can feel the kicker holding back as tough as ever), There is fuel getting to the carb, I'm having trouble getting spark though becauase Im lucky if I can get the engine sprocket to start to rotate 90 degrees or so once every 10 kicks. When I feel enough compression from the kicker lever to potentially start the bike It usually just slips before I can get the sprocket to turn over. I'm sure these bikes must have started better at the factory or none would have left the lot! I replaced the kicker gears with v twin parts. Maybe I'm just not spacing or shimming something correctly? Please someone tell me that there is a way to fix this. Does anyone else have an early model like mine that can actually be kicked over? The gear has 9 teeth I heard something about a 13 tooth replacement is this true? Like I said this is an awesome bike but waht good is it if it wont start?
Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,035
Likes: 17
From: Houston Texas
RE: early xlch: impossible design or fixable?
Yep, my 1971 is a one kick machine after it has started for the first time. Being cold, it will require as many as 10 kicks to get it going sometimes, but it always does start and after that, I do a single kick and it fires off.
The only way that the starter could slip is if your clutch is slipping. If the clutch is grabbing as it should, then there is nothing to slip.
The 1968 uses a dry clutch. There is a bonnet over the clutch basket with a gasket and about a dozen screws hold it in place.
On the backside of the clutch basket there is an oil seal to keep oil out of the clutch on the backside. And finally, the 3rd seal is around your push rod for the clutch. It keeps oil from traveling along the rod and fouling the clutch.
If any oil at all gets on your clutch plates, the clutch is done for and you need to buy new plates.
I have attached the entire 3 page section on your kick starter and how to repair it.
There is indeed a method for kick starting an XLCH, and some people have a bit of trouble with it at first. Once you get the knack of it, you will have no problem.
Parts from VTwin are always a big gamble.
If you bought replacement gears from them I would be sure that they match the original gears for dimension......and never throw old parts away on an ironhead, especially something older than a 1971.
If you decide you just don't want to fool with the CH any more please let me know. Depending on what kind of condition your bike is in, we may be able to make a deal.........pg
edit note: The forum only allows me to attach jpegs, so what I have here is going to be impossible to read. Again, I wish they could somehow let us use PDF instead of jpegs. If you want something you can read you will have to email me and I will return the email with PDF attachment. wb_perry@yahoo.com
[IMG]local://upfiles/8331/3B6A99A6EFB04987B7AB535F901D74B2.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]local://upfiles/8331/C8ED084DFC7B422B9E487B9F563DB039.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]local://upfiles/8331/0696189187674E8C88F550A3BBAAF30D.jpg[/IMG]
The only way that the starter could slip is if your clutch is slipping. If the clutch is grabbing as it should, then there is nothing to slip.
The 1968 uses a dry clutch. There is a bonnet over the clutch basket with a gasket and about a dozen screws hold it in place.
On the backside of the clutch basket there is an oil seal to keep oil out of the clutch on the backside. And finally, the 3rd seal is around your push rod for the clutch. It keeps oil from traveling along the rod and fouling the clutch.
If any oil at all gets on your clutch plates, the clutch is done for and you need to buy new plates.
I have attached the entire 3 page section on your kick starter and how to repair it.
There is indeed a method for kick starting an XLCH, and some people have a bit of trouble with it at first. Once you get the knack of it, you will have no problem.
Parts from VTwin are always a big gamble.
If you bought replacement gears from them I would be sure that they match the original gears for dimension......and never throw old parts away on an ironhead, especially something older than a 1971.
If you decide you just don't want to fool with the CH any more please let me know. Depending on what kind of condition your bike is in, we may be able to make a deal.........pg
edit note: The forum only allows me to attach jpegs, so what I have here is going to be impossible to read. Again, I wish they could somehow let us use PDF instead of jpegs. If you want something you can read you will have to email me and I will return the email with PDF attachment. wb_perry@yahoo.com
[IMG]local://upfiles/8331/3B6A99A6EFB04987B7AB535F901D74B2.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]local://upfiles/8331/C8ED084DFC7B422B9E487B9F563DB039.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]local://upfiles/8331/0696189187674E8C88F550A3BBAAF30D.jpg[/IMG]
Cruiser
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 149
Likes: 2
RE: early xlch: impossible design or fixable?
Yep, I just bought the entire starter gear kit (V-twin) and ended up using only the bushing on my '65, and even it wasn't as snug as I'd like. All the gears or nubs on the rathchet were smaller than stock and slightly different shaped, the spring didn't fit as well as the original, and so on.
The kicker shouldn't slip at all. This could be the clutch, but it could also be the ratchet gear failing to properly engage. In the case of my 65, the ratchet and gear were okay, but the cluth hub bearing was shot and the cause of the problem. I've seen the entire starter kit on ebay for fifty bucks. Don't know if it's the same as the V-twin kit, but as Pinion suggests, keep all your original parts.
I live in the Northwest, and keep my only magneto Sportsters inside where it's warm. It has a Joe Hunt rather than the original, but it's a two to three kick starter cold. It's a lot harder to start if it's been sitting out for a few hours. I'm running a CV carb on that one, and that along with the Joe Hunt seems to be a winning combination.
It may be time to have your mag rebuilt as well. Make sure you're getting a thick blue spark at the plug. I don't know how much it costs, but Morris, the OEM, will rebuild the mag for you if you send it in. http://www.morrismagneto.com/magneto.html
It's very difficult to keep an early Sportster's clutch dry. If you use the OEM plates and they become oil soaked, you might as well toss them, but the Kevlar lined plates work better when they get oil and you can get the oil out of them by burying them in cat litter (the cheap kind) and letting them sit overnight.
As for the proper kicking technique, I wish I could figure out how to describe it, but I've been doing it so long it just comes naturally.
The kicker shouldn't slip at all. This could be the clutch, but it could also be the ratchet gear failing to properly engage. In the case of my 65, the ratchet and gear were okay, but the cluth hub bearing was shot and the cause of the problem. I've seen the entire starter kit on ebay for fifty bucks. Don't know if it's the same as the V-twin kit, but as Pinion suggests, keep all your original parts.
I live in the Northwest, and keep my only magneto Sportsters inside where it's warm. It has a Joe Hunt rather than the original, but it's a two to three kick starter cold. It's a lot harder to start if it's been sitting out for a few hours. I'm running a CV carb on that one, and that along with the Joe Hunt seems to be a winning combination.
It may be time to have your mag rebuilt as well. Make sure you're getting a thick blue spark at the plug. I don't know how much it costs, but Morris, the OEM, will rebuild the mag for you if you send it in. http://www.morrismagneto.com/magneto.html
It's very difficult to keep an early Sportster's clutch dry. If you use the OEM plates and they become oil soaked, you might as well toss them, but the Kevlar lined plates work better when they get oil and you can get the oil out of them by burying them in cat litter (the cheap kind) and letting them sit overnight.
As for the proper kicking technique, I wish I could figure out how to describe it, but I've been doing it so long it just comes naturally.
Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,035
Likes: 17
From: Houston Texas
RE: early xlch: impossible design or fixable?
Yes MW......and in case anyone is looking to buy a kit, J&P Cycles sells one for about $285. I am sure it is an import item (what isn't these days?) but the quality may be better than Tedd's VTwin.
I know the customer service is better, and it don't take much to beat that of Tedd's, which is zero.........pg
I know the customer service is better, and it don't take much to beat that of Tedd's, which is zero.........pg
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 11,068
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From: Texas! Ya mean there's someplace else?
RE: early xlch: impossible design or fixable?
ORIGINAL: piniongear
Yes MW......and in case anyone is looking to buy a kit, J&P Cycles sells one for about $285. I am sure it is an import item (what isn't these days?) but the quality may be better than Tedd's VTwin.
I know the customer service is better, and it don't take much to beat that of Tedd's, which is zero.........pg
Yes MW......and in case anyone is looking to buy a kit, J&P Cycles sells one for about $285. I am sure it is an import item (what isn't these days?) but the quality may be better than Tedd's VTwin.
I know the customer service is better, and it don't take much to beat that of Tedd's, which is zero.........pg
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RE: early xlch: impossible design or fixable?
yeah I got my gear kit from j&p which actually came from v twin mfg anyway. P.G. you mentioned that the clutch might be the reason my kicker keeps slipping. Should I always pull in the clutch to start the bike even if it is in neutral? I suppose if the clutch plates are removed and one were to kick the bike over in neutral without pulling in the clutch it should turn the engine sprocket which would start the motor? Am I correct on this, I'm not sure. It seems that the sportster clutch works differently than the big twin. I might see If I can try a stronger ratchet gear spring or glue the spring in place. I also might see If I can try another brand of kit. Most responses I have gotten are weak starter clutch spring(seemed pretty weak out of the package actually!) or not secured to starter clutch gear properly. or teeth on starter clutch or starter clutch sliding gear bad.
Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,035
Likes: 17
From: Houston Texas
RE: early xlch: impossible design or fixable?
P.G. you mentioned that the clutch might be the reason my kicker keeps slipping. Should I always pull in the clutch to start the bike even if it is in neutral?
Oopp's......I apoligize to you for that one Spitshine. I was thinking of something else on another post.
I have highlighted the page that describes what the problem may be, and it has to do with the new kit you installed along with the length of the spacer (item 7 in the diagram) I hope the jpeg is readable.
And no, the clutch lever is not pulled in when you kick start the bike.........pg
[IMG]local://upfiles/8331/6A9A8BDCCFB14383B47D5800329B5C19.jpg[/IMG]
Oopp's......I apoligize to you for that one Spitshine. I was thinking of something else on another post.
I have highlighted the page that describes what the problem may be, and it has to do with the new kit you installed along with the length of the spacer (item 7 in the diagram) I hope the jpeg is readable.
And no, the clutch lever is not pulled in when you kick start the bike.........pg
[IMG]local://upfiles/8331/6A9A8BDCCFB14383B47D5800329B5C19.jpg[/IMG]
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RE: early xlch: impossible design or fixable?
Thanks for the quick respose PG I was gettin confused there for a second. I bet it has to do with the weak spring or a wrong spacer and possibly the teeth on the two gears are not meshing well. Other tips people told me if I get the kicker slipping fixed are to install compression releases; anyone know where to get these for an ironhead? Also to put a roller adjuster on the primary chain. One other question- could I wire a battery in line with the condensor or something to aid starting with a mag or would this not make any difference? Ive got plenty of time to think about it. Its 70 degrees outside and Im sitting at home right now recovering from a motorcycle accident on my yamaha last night. Ride like everyone else is tryin to kill you! Looks like Im gonna be building another chopper.
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Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,035
Likes: 17
From: Houston Texas
RE: early xlch: impossible design or fixable?
I bet it has to do with the weak spring or a wrong spacer and possibly the teeth on the two gears are not meshing well.
I would suspect the spacer length first and look at the gear engagement second myself.
The spring is there for one purpose only......and that is to keep the lever in the up position. It has absolutely nothing to do with the operation of the starter except to return the k/s lever to the up position. These springs also break fairly often. I always buy two when one breaks. If you are out on the road and it breaks, you can still start the bike (with difficulty because the lever stays down) but then you must tie the lever in the up position.
Other tips people told me if I get the kicker slipping fixed are to install compression releases; anyone know where to get these for an ironhead?
I do not know where this stuff comes from. I have seen it mentioned before. I hope someday someone can show me a compression release on a Sportster! The only comp release I have ever seen was on the old BSA single cylinder motorcycles, and other similar brands.
The way they work is like this:
There is a small lever on the handlebar with a cable attached.
At the other end of the cable, there is mechanical linkage coming out of the rocker box and the cable attaches to this.
When you get on the kick start lever, you pull in on the small handlebar comp release lever. This pulls the cable which pulls on the mech linkage that opens the exhaust valve slightly off it's seat. As the lever comes down with no resistance (no compression) you let go of the lever. The valve closes, the momentum of the free wheeling lever lets you get the engine to turn over easily and it starts (you hope anyway). Now, in my view this is just impossible to hook up on a 2 cylinder Sportster. In fifty years I have never seen such a thing on any bike other than a BSA, Ariel, Matchless or AJS....and only on the singles.
Also to put a roller adjuster on the primary chain.
Not necessary at all. It would be a waste of money with no benefit at all.
One other question- could I wire a battery in line with the condensor or something to aid starting with a mag or would this not make any difference?
Absolutely not. A battery provides power to a conventional electrical ignition system. The power is stored in the condenser to discharge when the points open.
Now, your magneto has a condenser built into the mag case. The mag generates the power to the condenser. Mags and 12 Volt electrical systems have us talking apples and oranges. I cannot explain it in technical terms, but lets just say it's like you cannot run headlights off your lawn mowers magneto.
Hope this helps you some........pg
I would suspect the spacer length first and look at the gear engagement second myself.
The spring is there for one purpose only......and that is to keep the lever in the up position. It has absolutely nothing to do with the operation of the starter except to return the k/s lever to the up position. These springs also break fairly often. I always buy two when one breaks. If you are out on the road and it breaks, you can still start the bike (with difficulty because the lever stays down) but then you must tie the lever in the up position.
Other tips people told me if I get the kicker slipping fixed are to install compression releases; anyone know where to get these for an ironhead?
I do not know where this stuff comes from. I have seen it mentioned before. I hope someday someone can show me a compression release on a Sportster! The only comp release I have ever seen was on the old BSA single cylinder motorcycles, and other similar brands.
The way they work is like this:
There is a small lever on the handlebar with a cable attached.
At the other end of the cable, there is mechanical linkage coming out of the rocker box and the cable attaches to this.
When you get on the kick start lever, you pull in on the small handlebar comp release lever. This pulls the cable which pulls on the mech linkage that opens the exhaust valve slightly off it's seat. As the lever comes down with no resistance (no compression) you let go of the lever. The valve closes, the momentum of the free wheeling lever lets you get the engine to turn over easily and it starts (you hope anyway). Now, in my view this is just impossible to hook up on a 2 cylinder Sportster. In fifty years I have never seen such a thing on any bike other than a BSA, Ariel, Matchless or AJS....and only on the singles.
Also to put a roller adjuster on the primary chain.
Not necessary at all. It would be a waste of money with no benefit at all.
One other question- could I wire a battery in line with the condensor or something to aid starting with a mag or would this not make any difference?
Absolutely not. A battery provides power to a conventional electrical ignition system. The power is stored in the condenser to discharge when the points open.
Now, your magneto has a condenser built into the mag case. The mag generates the power to the condenser. Mags and 12 Volt electrical systems have us talking apples and oranges. I cannot explain it in technical terms, but lets just say it's like you cannot run headlights off your lawn mowers magneto.
Hope this helps you some........pg
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 11,068
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From: Texas! Ya mean there's someplace else?
RE: early xlch: impossible design or fixable?
ORIGINAL: piniongear
(Snip some)
Other tips people told me if I get the kicker slipping fixed are to install compression releases; anyone know where to get these for an ironhead?
I do not know where this stuff comes from. I have seen it mentioned before. I hope someday someone can show me a compression release on a Sportster! The only comp release I have ever seen was on the old BSA single cylinder motorcycles, and other similar brands.
The way they work is like this:
There is a small lever on the handlebar with a cable attached.
At the other end of the cable, there is mechanical linkage coming out of the rocker box and the cable attaches to this.
When you get on the kick start lever, you pull in on the small handlebar comp release lever. This pulls the cable which pulls on the mech linkage that opens the exhaust valve slightly off it's seat. As the lever comes down with no resistance (no compression) you let go of the lever. The valve closes, the momentum of the free wheeling lever lets you get the engine to turn over easily and it starts (you hope anyway). Now, in my view this is just impossible to hook up on a 2 cylinder Sportster. In fifty years I have never seen such a thing on any bike other than a BSA, Ariel, Matchless or AJS....and only on the singles.
(Snip some)
........pg
(Snip some)
Other tips people told me if I get the kicker slipping fixed are to install compression releases; anyone know where to get these for an ironhead?
I do not know where this stuff comes from. I have seen it mentioned before. I hope someday someone can show me a compression release on a Sportster! The only comp release I have ever seen was on the old BSA single cylinder motorcycles, and other similar brands.
The way they work is like this:
There is a small lever on the handlebar with a cable attached.
At the other end of the cable, there is mechanical linkage coming out of the rocker box and the cable attaches to this.
When you get on the kick start lever, you pull in on the small handlebar comp release lever. This pulls the cable which pulls on the mech linkage that opens the exhaust valve slightly off it's seat. As the lever comes down with no resistance (no compression) you let go of the lever. The valve closes, the momentum of the free wheeling lever lets you get the engine to turn over easily and it starts (you hope anyway). Now, in my view this is just impossible to hook up on a 2 cylinder Sportster. In fifty years I have never seen such a thing on any bike other than a BSA, Ariel, Matchless or AJS....and only on the singles.
(Snip some)
........pg
http://www.jpcycles.com/ProductDetai...346&cs=All
Made by JIMS. These are used on plenty of big inch motors. They go into a separate 10mm hole. No cables, etc. Simply press down on the cap of each, start the engine, then the engine compression closes them.