Hard to start
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Road Captain
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 546
Likes: 1
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Hard to start
Well, I have always wanted a shovel so last week I went and bought one. I got a 79 FX stuffed into a rigid Paughco frame with a pretty long front end....bitchin. It had been in storage for a bit but it seemed to run fine. Long story short, several things crapped out on it in the following 4 days. I replaced points, clutch(foot clutch with a jockey shift takes a little while to get used to), fuel filter and plugs. Ran great and was easy to start, hot or cold, until the final "modification" and that was replacing a blown head gasket. Got the gasket replaced and now it's a **** to start after it's been sitting a while. The procedure used to be 2 twists of the throttle, kick it through 2 times with the switch off, turn the switch on and she would fire up 1st kick. Now it may take 15 or 50 kicks to start cold. Hot, it starts fine just like it did before. Points haven't crept or anything and the plugs look great. Solid lifters and the pushrods were adjusted to where they could be turned with my fingers at their lowest point. Long post and I probably didn't give enough info but what could me problem be? Runs good and I can't hear anything out of the ordinary in the rocker boxes. I will pull my pushrods tonight or tomorrow and re-check them since I am going to be rechecking the torque on the headbolts anyway(4th time since I prefer to do this then blow another gasket due to a loose headbolt like the last time
). Any input is appreciated. Oh yeah, stock 80 inch motor, solid lifters, S&S Super E Shorty carb and Blue streak points.
). Any input is appreciated. Oh yeah, stock 80 inch motor, solid lifters, S&S Super E Shorty carb and Blue streak points.
Road Warrior
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,286
Likes: 64
From: SoCal
RE: Hard to start
Just throwing my guess at ya is either bad spark plug wires or coil that has a serious "open" condition when cold. I kinda doubt that the carb is your problem since you didn't change anything about it and it runs fine (I assume that means it idles fine, ie. no vacuum leak) when warmed up. I'd start with the plug wires. Screamin' Eagle wires (long/short style) go for around $12 last time I bought some. If you have some "known" good ones try them before you go buying anything...same for the coil if it ain't the wires. Have you checked the spark when the engine is cold?
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Road Captain
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 546
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RE: Hard to start
I have a set of wires that I can try. I guess I am still hung up on improperly adjusted psuhrods so I will check those after the plug wires. I do know that it is gettin spark from the points but I haven't checked the coil. Thanks for the input.
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Road Captain
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 546
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RE: Hard to start
Well, I went out to start it just to see if it would start and after about 15 kicks it finally fired up. Breather puked a lot of oil so I am thinking the check valve may need to be replaced. Would a sumping motor cause hard starts like this? I haven't had a chance to check the coil or the wires yet but they both have apparantly been replaced within the last 1500 miles(according to receipts I got from the previous owner). Before I replaced the head gasket it started on the 1st or 2nd kick so I am thinking I have screwed it up somehow. I have built a couple motors when I was roadracing so I am not a total novice when it comes to turning a wrench but I would rather get advice from folks with a lot of experience before I start replacing electrical components. I appreciate the help too.
Road Warrior
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,286
Likes: 64
From: SoCal
RE: Hard to start
I don't wanna sound like a broken record but I think it would be wise to check the continuity of the plug wires with an ohmmeter. When ya wiggle those wires around, like when your doing a top end, it is possible they are breaking down inside. Put a meter on 'em and wiggle them around as you are reading the meter to see if they are okay. At the same time you can check the plug wire ends and down in the towers on the coil for arcing. And check the arc across the plug gap as you turn it over. Once the ignition has been proven okay, I believe the next step is to check fuel delivery.
I just had a thought, when you replaced the points, did you replace the advance springs and lube the advance mechanism? I don't know how much you know about Harley ignition systems. The advance weight springs weaken over time with the heat they are exposed to and the lube for the advance weights dries out making the advance mechanism operate poorly.
I just had a thought, when you replaced the points, did you replace the advance springs and lube the advance mechanism? I don't know how much you know about Harley ignition systems. The advance weight springs weaken over time with the heat they are exposed to and the lube for the advance weights dries out making the advance mechanism operate poorly.
Road Master
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 953
Likes: 8
From: Central Oregon
RE: Hard to start
Intake or vacuum leak?
did you clean the contact points with electric cleaner before installation? {new points may have oil on them that should be removed}.
condenser can be effected by heat
oil in the crank case can cause the engine to turn slowly when starting which could cause hard starting especially with a kick start. Clean and or replace the check ball and spring.
recheck anything you are in doubt about ie valve adjustment
did you replace both head gaskets? {just curious}
did you change the timing?
did you do any changes to the carburetor adjustments in particular the accelerator pump?
are you using the en-richener while starting?
is the air cleaner installed at all times when trying to start?
give all your wiring a good once over for loose or funky connections.
have a fully charged battery.
after your normal starting procedure and a few kicks more does the engine make any kind of noise either out the exhaust pipes or carburetor?
when it doesn't start after several kicks are the spark plugs wet or dry?
good luck!
did you clean the contact points with electric cleaner before installation? {new points may have oil on them that should be removed}.
condenser can be effected by heat
oil in the crank case can cause the engine to turn slowly when starting which could cause hard starting especially with a kick start. Clean and or replace the check ball and spring.
recheck anything you are in doubt about ie valve adjustment
did you replace both head gaskets? {just curious}
did you change the timing?
did you do any changes to the carburetor adjustments in particular the accelerator pump?
are you using the en-richener while starting?
is the air cleaner installed at all times when trying to start?
give all your wiring a good once over for loose or funky connections.
have a fully charged battery.
after your normal starting procedure and a few kicks more does the engine make any kind of noise either out the exhaust pipes or carburetor?
when it doesn't start after several kicks are the spark plugs wet or dry?
good luck!
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Road Captain
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 546
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RE: Hard to start
No intake or vaccum leaks
Cleaned the points with a bit of alcohol
new condenser(when I replaced points I went ahead and did that as well)
Both head gaskets were replaced
No change to the timing unless the advance mechanism has slipped?
Only change to the carb was idle adjustment up a little to keep it running
Enrichener is used sometimes and sometimes it isn't(I have tried it on and off with no difference in starting difficulty)
air cleaner is always installed when trying to start
Battery is charged.
The "procedure" to start it never failed to work before the headgaskets were changed. That is whyI think it is something with the way I reassembled the bike. The check ball and spring are going to be replaced and I will recheck the wiring as well. The sidemounted switch isn't the smoothest operating and it probably could stand to be replaced even if it isn't the culprit. Plugs look really good and aren't fuel fouled. It's kick only so it is hard for me to do certain diagnostic tests on the ignition system by myself. I have a good friend that is the local shovel expert and I am hoping I can get up with him Monday and get his opinion(help). That's if I haven't figured it out on my own by then. I appreciate the responses though and I will get it sorted soon enouh.
Cleaned the points with a bit of alcohol
new condenser(when I replaced points I went ahead and did that as well)
Both head gaskets were replaced
No change to the timing unless the advance mechanism has slipped?
Only change to the carb was idle adjustment up a little to keep it running
Enrichener is used sometimes and sometimes it isn't(I have tried it on and off with no difference in starting difficulty)
air cleaner is always installed when trying to start
Battery is charged.
The "procedure" to start it never failed to work before the headgaskets were changed. That is whyI think it is something with the way I reassembled the bike. The check ball and spring are going to be replaced and I will recheck the wiring as well. The sidemounted switch isn't the smoothest operating and it probably could stand to be replaced even if it isn't the culprit. Plugs look really good and aren't fuel fouled. It's kick only so it is hard for me to do certain diagnostic tests on the ignition system by myself. I have a good friend that is the local shovel expert and I am hoping I can get up with him Monday and get his opinion(help). That's if I haven't figured it out on my own by then. I appreciate the responses though and I will get it sorted soon enouh.
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Road Master
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 953
Likes: 8
From: Central Oregon
RE: Hard to start
When I replaced the check ball and spring on my 68 after removal and cleaning the housing I replaced the old ball in the housing and with a drift punch lightly tapped the ball to re-seat the surface then removed the old ball and installed the new pieces.
It is difficult to chase a hard start on a kick only. {been there} thats why I would suggest using the clues given you.
after you go through you start sequence and you get no signs of starting IE a pop or some kind of noise I would pull a plug or both and see if they are wet or dry this should give you some indication of fuel.
If you are running the spark pugs in and out be sure and put a small dab of anti seize on the threads {only} of the plug to save the threads.
you can check spark to the plugs by having the plug wire plugged in to a plug grounded to the head or some where and with the points in a closed position open and close them with a small screw driver and look for spark. Not very scientific but may help give you an idea.
you may also want to do a compression test to see if by chance the rings are ok.
funky ignition switches can cause a guy much grief if you think that may be a cause simply hot wire the ignition and give that a try.
good luck and keep us posted.
It is difficult to chase a hard start on a kick only. {been there} thats why I would suggest using the clues given you.
after you go through you start sequence and you get no signs of starting IE a pop or some kind of noise I would pull a plug or both and see if they are wet or dry this should give you some indication of fuel.
If you are running the spark pugs in and out be sure and put a small dab of anti seize on the threads {only} of the plug to save the threads.
you can check spark to the plugs by having the plug wire plugged in to a plug grounded to the head or some where and with the points in a closed position open and close them with a small screw driver and look for spark. Not very scientific but may help give you an idea.
you may also want to do a compression test to see if by chance the rings are ok.
funky ignition switches can cause a guy much grief if you think that may be a cause simply hot wire the ignition and give that a try.
good luck and keep us posted.
Banned
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 243
Likes: 0
From:
RE: Hard to start
ORIGINAL: Rodney
When I replaced the check ball and spring on my 68 after removal and cleaning the housing I replaced the old ball in the housing and with a drift punch lightly tapped the ball to re-seat the surface then removed the old ball and installed the new pieces.
It is difficult to chase a hard start on a kick only. {been there} thats why I would suggest using the clues given you.
after you go through you start sequence and you get no signs of starting IE a pop or some kind of noise I would pull a plug or both and see if they are wet or dry this should give you some indication of fuel.
If you are running the spark pugs in and out be sure and put a small dab of anti seize on the threads {only} of the plug to save the threads.
you can check spark to the plugs by having the plug wire plugged in to a plug grounded to the head or some where and with the points in a closed position open and close them with a small screw driver and look for spark. Not very scientific but may help give you an idea.
you may also want to do a compression test to see if by chance the rings are ok.
funky ignition switches can cause a guy much grief if you think that may be a cause simply hot wire the ignition and give that a try.
good luck and keep us posted.
When I replaced the check ball and spring on my 68 after removal and cleaning the housing I replaced the old ball in the housing and with a drift punch lightly tapped the ball to re-seat the surface then removed the old ball and installed the new pieces.
It is difficult to chase a hard start on a kick only. {been there} thats why I would suggest using the clues given you.
after you go through you start sequence and you get no signs of starting IE a pop or some kind of noise I would pull a plug or both and see if they are wet or dry this should give you some indication of fuel.
If you are running the spark pugs in and out be sure and put a small dab of anti seize on the threads {only} of the plug to save the threads.
you can check spark to the plugs by having the plug wire plugged in to a plug grounded to the head or some where and with the points in a closed position open and close them with a small screw driver and look for spark. Not very scientific but may help give you an idea.
you may also want to do a compression test to see if by chance the rings are ok.
funky ignition switches can cause a guy much grief if you think that may be a cause simply hot wire the ignition and give that a try.
good luck and keep us posted.