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Engine Mechanical TopicsDiscussion for motor builds, cams, head work, stripped bolts and other engine related issues. The good and the bad. If it goes round and around or up and down, post it here.
I recently purchased an 06 RK with only 7k miles. The bike is practically new and appears to be very well maintained. New to HD and new to this forum, the subject of this TC 88 cam chain tensioner has brought me to this site. I am hoping to find the best solution to making my RK bullit proof. I'm looking for a cost effective (not cheap) upgrade whether that would be changing the shoes, or installing gear driven cams. Key word here is upgrade. I'll do my own work.
Best "bullet proof" upgrade would be gear driven cams provided crank run out is no more than .003"; some have run gears at .004" but .003" is the standard acceptable run out for gear driven cams. If cam run out is excessive, replacing the tensioner shoes with the CYCO shoes has worked for many.
Whether or not you want to upgrade the cam plate/oil pump is a personal decision. I run the early cam plate and oil pump in a run of the mill 95" motor (104TQ/94HP) and will also run that cam plate with a Daytona pump when I upgrade to a 98" configuration that should boost numbers to the 110/110 range; I don't see a need to replace the early OEM cam plate but, like I said, a personal choice. Should you run one of the SE upgrade cam plate kits, be advised that both CYCO, Zipper's and, IIRC, S&S also make alternative shoes for the OEM units; Zippers is a dual piston shoe that has gotten good reports.
You should upgrade the inner cam bearings to the full compliment B-148s.
Probably be good idea to get into the cam chest, take a look at the OEM tensioners and check crank run out now and you can start making plans to upgrade. The unpredictable life span of the OEM tensioners is what makes them such a problem. They can look good, with normal wear at 10K miles but completely disintegrate at 12K miles. The inner shoe was gone in my '05 FDSTD at 12K miles and the outer shoe was gone in my '02 FLHT at 25K miles; both while still in Stage I trim.
BTW, if you want to continue the discussion, you might start your own thread on the subject as this one has run the course.
Thanks djl for this quick response. I'm leaning toward replacing the shoes as I do the first inspection, and also the inner bearings. While at it I could polish the backside of the chains. I'll use fully synthetic and maybe change shoes every 10 to 20k miles? I would think this would keep me out of trouble, I ride easy.
It is a proven fact that without the roller chain on the inner, you still have the wear on the inner shoe. The hydraulic at 3000 rpm with 35 lb oil pressure is wearing just as much as a spring tensioner. Is less at idle but who idles a Harley.
Upgrade with 21K. see attachment. Note roller chain and link chain wear pattern with hydraulic tensioner
Sure, it is a upgrade in 99% of everything else but to me, none of that service any purpose if I had to open it up to check inner shoe in 20K
That is my opinion just based on that 20K. And you have sold me on your word for the $20 shoes..
I would like to know where it's a "proven fact" about silent chains causing tensioner wear. Honda uses silent chains on a a lot of motorcycles including their V twins.. If there was an issue with chain wearing tensioners, wouldn't they change? 35 psi only generates 3.1 lbs of force on the chain. It's sole purpose is to take up slack as the chain rotates. The only time the tensioner see more force is on the down side of the cam ramps as the lifters want to roll the cam forward. Hydraulic pressure keeps the chain tight when cams want to roll forward. The problem with the early hair pin spring is that they have to run the tension high all the time just to keep from slackening the chain on lifter down slopes. It's tensioning system that eats tensioners, not the chain.
Stock 07 tensioner with about 45K on it.. First 15K with stock and a little SnS570 time. Rest with come time on the 570 (570 lift) , Woods W5(575 lift) and the infamous Skye Performance Dick Ripper cam (560 lift) on a set of ported stock heads with 180 lb seat pressure springs.. The side links on the roller chain is just as rough as the early silent chains.
SE Hybrid kit allows the owner more cam choice and it is an upgrade regardless of what Ripsaw thinks; no need to tear into the cam chest to check inner tensioner wear every 10K miles. SE Hybrid vs SE '07 up vs gears; dealer's choice IMHO.
CYCO shoes are cheaper than OEM shoes but that does not make them "cheap" replacements. The shoe material has been improved since first introduced; good quality and there have been no reports of premature wear or failure.
Throwing a set of 509 cams in a stock or Stage I TC88 will mean better performance, so let's not conflate cam only upgrades with builds that include head work, more displacement, cams, exhaust etc. where matching of components does come into play.
Not necessarily more cam choices???? is the SE hybrid an upgrade? yes & No - maybe 1/2 an upgrade, I'm not big on the SE or the S&S upgrades - those fancy cam plates look perty but when that coating is laying in the cam chest that's not pretty.
The CYCO shoes are a cheap replacement & regardless of the shoe material the spring tension & silent chain flaws are still present - this is a poor mans fix IMHO & usually the bike goes up for sale shortly after!!!
509`s will give you more power but at limited RPM ranges - you think both cylinders have the same characteristics??? answer is NO, yes you can throw any cam in & get a better result but it doesn't mean the RIGHT result.
the right result takes checking for certain things - like compression test ratio`s between cylinders - leak down tests & many other things that go into a RIGHT cam selection, remember these are air cooled machines & the difference between #1 & #2 means a lot - which do you build or Cam by? the worst cylinder? best cylinder? or take the average between the 2.
Most folks aren't going to worry about a minor percent of fluctuation in cylinder volume or compression testing as long as it is in spec - but don't over simplify for the sake of wanting some internet pat on the back from some poor Noob on a quest for "POWER" Ive seen many builds & corrected them cause the owner heard it from a friend who heard it from another - you know what I mean? DO IT RIGHT.... & the money you spend will be worth it.
I would like to know where it's a "proven fact" about silent chains causing tensioner wear. Honda uses silent chains on a a lot of motorcycles including their V twins.. If there was an issue with chain wearing tensioners, wouldn't they change? 35 psi only generates 3.1 lbs of force on the chain. It's sole purpose is to take up slack as the chain rotates. The only time the tensioner see more force is on the down side of the cam ramps as the lifters want to roll the cam forward. Hydraulic pressure keeps the chain tight when cams want to roll forward. The problem with the early hair pin spring is that they have to run the tension high all the time just to keep from slackening the chain on lifter down slopes. It's tensioning system that eats tensioners, not the chain.
Stock 07 tensioner with about 45K on it.. First 15K with stock and a little SnS570 time. Rest with come time on the 570 (570 lift) , Woods W5(575 lift) and the infamous Skye Performance Dick Ripper cam (560 lift) on a set of ported stock heads with 180 lb seat pressure springs.. The side links on the roller chain is just as rough as the early silent chains.
Max, I don't think in general the silent chains are bad, I think HD went cheap early on & got a bad batch of em, I posted my findings on another thread when I checked the chains & I'm thinking it was a quality control issue.
Yes the side links can be rough but the wear down to the roller is where you want to get the shoes - at that point its all good!
Max, I don't think in general the silent chains are bad, I think HD went cheap early on & got a bad batch of em, I posted my findings on another thread when I checked the chains & I'm thinking it was a quality control issue.
Yes the side links can be rough but the wear down to the roller is where you want to get the shoes - at that point its all good!
That doesn't surprise me.. I know one of the guys that was instrumental in developing the current TC tensioner system. He was saying that the quality if the chains HD was using was pretty bad. First thing they looked at was simply using better quality chains to see if it helped. He mentioned the issues they were having. After finding the secret sauce and showing HD things went quiet.
Not necessarily more cam choices???? is the SE hybrid an upgrade? yes & No - maybe 1/2 an upgrade, I'm not big on the SE or the S&S upgrades - those fancy cam plates look perty but when that coating is laying in the cam chest that's not pretty.
So we partly agreed that the SE hybrid kit is an upgrade; wow! Of course there are more cam choices with the SE hybrid "upgrade" because the owner is not limited to conversion cams.
Originally Posted by LXT
The CYCO shoes are a cheap replacement & regardless of the shoe material the spring tension & silent chain flaws are still present - this is a poor mans fix IMHO & usually the bike goes up for sale shortly after!!!
Tell me how you know the bike goes up for sale right after installing CYCO shoes? I know several that have installed them and none of those bikes have been sold; some installed the shoes a couple of years back.
Originally Posted by LXT
509`s will give you more power but at limited RPM ranges - you think both cylinders have the same characteristics??? answer is NO, yes you can throw any cam in & get a better result but it doesn't mean the RIGHT result. the right result takes checking for certain things - like compression test ratio`s between cylinders - leak down tests & many other things that go into a RIGHT cam selection, remember these are air cooled machines & the difference between #1 & #2 means a lot - which do you build or Cam by? the worst cylinder? best cylinder? or take the average between the 2.
Every cam provides power in a limited RPM range; there is no cam that provides progressive power from idle to the rev limiter. Generally speaking, both cylinders actually do have the same characteristics but chamber volume may vary; I have seen TC88 cylinders measure 90cc. However, there are many stock and stage 1 owners that are looking for a bolt in, cam only upgrade and those guys are not concerned, nor should they be, about matching cylinder volume, compression/leak down testing, etc.; they just want a measureable performance bump. When building my own, which go way beyond Stage 1, I measure twice and cut once and advise those that are planning something similar to do the same; if you know what I mean.
Originally Posted by LXT
Most folks aren't going to worry about a minor percent of fluctuation in cylinder volume or compression testing as long as it is in spec - but don't over simplify for the sake of wanting some internet pat on the back from some poor Noob on a quest for "POWER" Ive seen many builds & corrected them cause the owner heard it from a friend who heard it from another - you know what I mean? DO IT RIGHT.... & the money you spend will be worth it.
I am not on this forum looking for a pat on the back; couldn't care less if my suggestions are ignored or not. I don't see forum members as "poor Noobs"; just guys that perhaps know less than I know about these (yes, they are air cooled vtwins) motors. I try to provide any information I can to answer their questions and keep them from making costly mistakes.
So we partly agreed that the SE hybrid kit is an upgrade; wow! Of course there are more cam choices with the SE hybrid "upgrade" because the owner is not limited to conversion cams.
Almost agree - 1/2 an upgrade!!!
Tell me how you know the bike goes up for sale right after installing CYCO shoes? I know several that have installed them and none of those bikes have been sold; some installed the shoes a couple of years back.
Many I have wrenched on were just bought & guess what the selling point was - Yep, New tensioner shoes & CYCO was the name mentioned many times!!!!
Every cam provides power in a limited RPM range; there is no cam that provides progressive power from idle to the rev limiter. Generally speaking, both cylinders actually do have the same characteristics but chamber volume may vary; I have seen TC88 cylinders measure 90cc. However, there are many stock and stage 1 owners that are looking for a bolt in, cam only upgrade and those guys are not concerned, nor should they be, about matching cylinder volume, compression/leak down testing, etc.; they just want a measureable performance bump. When building my own, which go way beyond Stage 1, I measure twice and cut once and advise those that are planning something similar to do the same; if you know what I mean.
WRONG, both cylinders having the same characteristics...but that's an in depth debate that gets into parasitic loss, coefficients & other terminologies. singular (Cam) Bolt in upgrades are a unicorn & any long term wrench will verify that - sometime you have to measure more than twice or at least measure right - ya know what I mean?
I am not on this forum looking for a pat on the back; couldn't care less if my suggestions are ignored or not. I don't see forum members as "poor Noobs"; just guys that perhaps know less than I know about these (yes, they are air cooled vtwins) motors. I try to provide any information I can to answer their questions and keep them from making costly mistakes.
Clearly - you have suggested CYCO shoes several times = certainly not costly, nor a good choice
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