Stage 1 and Fuel management question
Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,117
Likes: 1,193
From: Maryland
Maybe... But their available list of options is generally pretty limited from what I've seen. This being and example. They don't have a tune for a '14 Softail with SE AC and SE slip-ons. Best you can do with this approach is chose one that looks close and hope for the best (not keen on that). Other issues exist as well, but in the interest of keeping it short...
You also need to know what changed (as compared with the stock/one you're replacing) with that "canned" tune. For example... If you download a tune for a '09 Sportster sporting a SE AC and V&H Short Shots, what will you find that's different from the stock tune? You'll initially might be a little surprised because it doesn't look like much changed. The Spark tables are essentially untouched. AFR's are changed from 14.6 to 14.5. That last part forces it into open loop operation. You might ask why they would do that... Well...It's not until you look at the VE table deltas that you find out the significant change in the tune. They enrich (significantly?) a lot of what normally is the closed loop operating range by adjusting the VE values to provide more fuel. For that to work, it needs to run open loop. Now a lot of folks might want to play with their new gadget and try out that "Auto Tune" thingy. If you do that after flashing this "canned map" you may have just trashed it (you'll likely undo the enriching that was done by the VE changes).
Now... You may ask... What if the enriching done to the VE tables is just the necessary changes/calibration required by the SE AC/Short Shots to make the VE tables accurate? Ok. Could be all that it is. But then why take it out of closed loop and run open loop by changing the 14.6 AFR table cells to 14.5 (hardly a change worth doing - in and of itself)? If the VE table deltas were simply a matter of calibration, then you'd leave those AFR cells set to 14.6 and take advantage of running closed loop.
You also need to know what changed (as compared with the stock/one you're replacing) with that "canned" tune. For example... If you download a tune for a '09 Sportster sporting a SE AC and V&H Short Shots, what will you find that's different from the stock tune? You'll initially might be a little surprised because it doesn't look like much changed. The Spark tables are essentially untouched. AFR's are changed from 14.6 to 14.5. That last part forces it into open loop operation. You might ask why they would do that... Well...It's not until you look at the VE table deltas that you find out the significant change in the tune. They enrich (significantly?) a lot of what normally is the closed loop operating range by adjusting the VE values to provide more fuel. For that to work, it needs to run open loop. Now a lot of folks might want to play with their new gadget and try out that "Auto Tune" thingy. If you do that after flashing this "canned map" you may have just trashed it (you'll likely undo the enriching that was done by the VE changes).
Now... You may ask... What if the enriching done to the VE tables is just the necessary changes/calibration required by the SE AC/Short Shots to make the VE tables accurate? Ok. Could be all that it is. But then why take it out of closed loop and run open loop by changing the 14.6 AFR table cells to 14.5 (hardly a change worth doing - in and of itself)? If the VE table deltas were simply a matter of calibration, then you'd leave those AFR cells set to 14.6 and take advantage of running closed loop.
Last edited by T^2; Oct 20, 2017 at 10:12 PM.
The Thundermax is expensive but isn't married to the bike. There's a lot of crossover in the various models as well. It's expensive because it completely replaces the ECU. So, you save the cost of a Dyno and you can box the ECU. A replacement ECU ain't cheap so you do end up with a spare.
If I had it to do over again, I'd just bite the bullet.
If I had it to do over again, I'd just bite the bullet.
Thread Starter
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Grand HDF Member
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 3,586
Likes: 889
From: Nowhere
Maybe... But their available list of options is generally pretty limited from what I've seen. This being and example. They don't have a tune for a '14 Softail with SE AC and SE slip-ons. Best you can do with this approach is chose one that looks close and hope for the best (not keen on that). Other issues exist as well, but in the interest of keeping it short...
You also need to know what changed (as compared with the stock/one you're replacing) with that "canned" tune. For example... If you download a tune for a '09 Sportster sporting a SE AC and V&H Short Shots, what will you find that's different from the stock tune? You'll initially might be a little surprised because it doesn't look like much changed. The Spark tables are essentially untouched. AFR's are changed from 14.6 to 14.5. That last part forces it into open loop operation. You might ask why they would do that... Well...It's not until you look at the VE table deltas that you find out the significant change in the tune. They enrich (significantly?) a lot of what normally is the closed loop operating range by adjusting the VE values to provide more fuel. For that to work, it needs to run open loop. Now a lot of folks might want to play with their new gadget and try out that "Auto Tune" thingy. If you do that after flashing this "canned map" you may have just trashed it (you'll likely undo the enriching that was done by the VE changes).
Now... You may ask... What if the enriching done to the VE tables is just the necessary changes/calibration required by the SE AC/Short Shots to make the VE tables accurate? Ok. Could be all that it is. But then why take it out of closed loop and run open loop by changing the 14.6 AFR table cells to 14.5 (hardly a change worth doing - in and of itself)? If the VE table deltas were simply a matter of calibration, then you'd leave those AFR cells set to 14.6 and take advantage of running closed loop.
You also need to know what changed (as compared with the stock/one you're replacing) with that "canned" tune. For example... If you download a tune for a '09 Sportster sporting a SE AC and V&H Short Shots, what will you find that's different from the stock tune? You'll initially might be a little surprised because it doesn't look like much changed. The Spark tables are essentially untouched. AFR's are changed from 14.6 to 14.5. That last part forces it into open loop operation. You might ask why they would do that... Well...It's not until you look at the VE table deltas that you find out the significant change in the tune. They enrich (significantly?) a lot of what normally is the closed loop operating range by adjusting the VE values to provide more fuel. For that to work, it needs to run open loop. Now a lot of folks might want to play with their new gadget and try out that "Auto Tune" thingy. If you do that after flashing this "canned map" you may have just trashed it (you'll likely undo the enriching that was done by the VE changes).
Now... You may ask... What if the enriching done to the VE tables is just the necessary changes/calibration required by the SE AC/Short Shots to make the VE tables accurate? Ok. Could be all that it is. But then why take it out of closed loop and run open loop by changing the 14.6 AFR table cells to 14.5 (hardly a change worth doing - in and of itself)? If the VE table deltas were simply a matter of calibration, then you'd leave those AFR cells set to 14.6 and take advantage of running closed loop.
Now more questions than answers. Awwwww....
Last edited by Burbur2; Oct 20, 2017 at 10:27 PM.
Road Warrior
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,584
Likes: 520
From: VA
Burbur2. To add to what others have said and since I have experience with some of these tuners. My 14 Slim had SE air cleaner and SE mufflers. I used a PV tuner. Like someone else pointed out, it is a tool and you have to learn how to use it. And I spent a lot of time in the 4 years I owned the bike learning how to use the PV and make tweaks. Jamie at Fuel Moto answered a lot of my questions. But there is just so much to learn and he cannot be there to answer all the questions. At one point in time, after fiddling with the PV quiet a bit, I actually reloaded the map Jamie sent with the PV. I could not tell one bit of difference riding the bike with the original map Jamie sent and the one I had developed using auto tune. Might there have been a difference on a Dyno? Probably. After having used various tuners over the years here is my take on my particular application. Since I was running SE air cleaner and SE mufflers I wish I had just used the SE tuner and called it good. The reason being I knew I was not going to go beyond the SE stage 1. All that time and effort and additional expense did not make a noticeable change. Something to consider if your plan is to leave it at Stage 1. If you plan to change cams at any point in time my suggestion is to buy the PV from Fuel Moto and run a cam they have a map for. That way you will be real close out of the box. I will also point out that while they have good intentions there are a lot of folks who post bad information about using the PV. So be real careful if you go that route. People will tell you that there is really no substitute for a good dyno tune. I cannot argue that, especially if you start changing cams. But for a Stage1 bike I have never found it necessary. I once had a Stage1 bike with a canned map run on a dyno. After 3 pulls the dyno operator told me there was no use in wasting my money and his time as it was already about as good as you could get. Dont know if I have helped or made you more confused.
Grand HDF Member
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,515
Likes: 887
From: Upstate New York
Burbur2 I have a PV from FuelMoto and only a stage 1. I ran the auto tune several times and reflashed my bike. Rode it that way but had some minor decel popping. Sent the flashed map to Jamie and he tweaked it for me and sent it back. I reflashed the bike and now runs excellent. No decel, and pulls hard. That was 4 years ago. I plan on doing a drop in cam this winter or next spring. Just make sure you get the PV from FuelMoto.
Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,117
Likes: 1,193
From: Maryland
This is exactly what I was worrying about **** get too complicated for my carb brains I guess I have to relearn from scratch. This is quite overwhelming. Looking at all this now + deltas (???) I feel maybe unlimited tunes/flushes based on what I got at 260$ is not bad idea??
Now more questions than answers. Awwwww....
Now more questions than answers. Awwwww....
I noted that closed loop control/adaptive learning may compensate for the errors introduced by the SE AC and slip-ons. "May" is the key term. But so what if it did? You still are running a stock tune and all that comes with that.
When I bought my Nightster, the PO had installed V&H Side Shots on it. It still had the stock tune in it. Stock AC was still on it. How did it run? It ran, but needed improvement (various issues). Long story short - VE cals have been done and a lot of the leanest has been fattened up in my tune since then and it runs well these days.
My point is, you could try to run it without tuning and it may well compensate for your changes. But, it likely could be made to run better with some decent tuning. You are no longer hampered by a warranty, so you got room for more improvement.
What would I do in your shoes...
If I really didn't want to deal with it, I might just go and have a competent pro do a tune. The hard part might be in finding a "competent" pro.
Or...
You could simply call Fuel Moto and get a PV. They'll likely have a canned map that may very well do the job. They certainly have very good support and can help you with the learning curve. I do suggest that you look at and understand the changes that are being made by the new tune. As you dig in and figure this stuff out, you might have curiosity about auto tuning, which is fine. Just know that it's not really auto tuning. It's an attempt to calibrate the VE tables. Based on what you have, you may decide it's something you want to do.
One more note. Unfortunately, the documentation that comes with some of these devices is poor (DynoJet's being no exception). This complicates the learning curve. If I remember correctly, the Master Tune/TTS manuals were pretty good (they do a better job with the theory - what you are doing, not just the how). Although things in those manual of for their product, the theory is the same.
Thread Starter
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Grand HDF Member
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 3,586
Likes: 889
From: Nowhere
Well I did mention that if you want to play with this stuff, doing some homework is recommended.
I noted that closed loop control/adaptive learning may compensate for the errors introduced by the SE AC and slip-ons. "May" is the key term. But so what if it did? You still are running a stock tune and all that comes with that.
When I bought my Nightster, the PO had installed V&H Side Shots on it. It still had the stock tune in it. Stock AC was still on it. How did it run? It ran, but needed improvement (various issues). Long story short - VE cals have been done and a lot of the leanest has been fattened up in my tune since then and it runs well these days.
My point is, you could try to run it without tuning and it may well compensate for your changes. But, it likely could be made to run better with some decent tuning. You are no longer hampered by a warranty, so you got room for more improvement.
What would I do in your shoes...
If I really didn't want to deal with it, I might just go and have a competent pro do a tune. The hard part might be in finding a "competent" pro.
Or...
You could simply call Fuel Moto and get a PV. They'll likely have a canned map that may very well do the job. They certainly have very good support and can help you with the learning curve. I do suggest that you look at and understand the changes that are being made by the new tune. As you dig in and figure this stuff out, you might have curiosity about auto tuning, which is fine. Just know that it's not really auto tuning. It's an attempt to calibrate the VE tables. Based on what you have, you may decide it's something you want to do.
One more note. Unfortunately, the documentation that comes with some of these devices is poor (DynoJet's being no exception). This complicates the learning curve. If I remember correctly, the Master Tune/TTS manuals were pretty good (they do a better job with the theory - what you are doing, not just the how). Although things in those manual of for their product, the theory is the same.
I noted that closed loop control/adaptive learning may compensate for the errors introduced by the SE AC and slip-ons. "May" is the key term. But so what if it did? You still are running a stock tune and all that comes with that.
When I bought my Nightster, the PO had installed V&H Side Shots on it. It still had the stock tune in it. Stock AC was still on it. How did it run? It ran, but needed improvement (various issues). Long story short - VE cals have been done and a lot of the leanest has been fattened up in my tune since then and it runs well these days.
My point is, you could try to run it without tuning and it may well compensate for your changes. But, it likely could be made to run better with some decent tuning. You are no longer hampered by a warranty, so you got room for more improvement.
What would I do in your shoes...
If I really didn't want to deal with it, I might just go and have a competent pro do a tune. The hard part might be in finding a "competent" pro.
Or...
You could simply call Fuel Moto and get a PV. They'll likely have a canned map that may very well do the job. They certainly have very good support and can help you with the learning curve. I do suggest that you look at and understand the changes that are being made by the new tune. As you dig in and figure this stuff out, you might have curiosity about auto tuning, which is fine. Just know that it's not really auto tuning. It's an attempt to calibrate the VE tables. Based on what you have, you may decide it's something you want to do.
One more note. Unfortunately, the documentation that comes with some of these devices is poor (DynoJet's being no exception). This complicates the learning curve. If I remember correctly, the Master Tune/TTS manuals were pretty good (they do a better job with the theory - what you are doing, not just the how). Although things in those manual of for their product, the theory is the same.
Considering that looks like Fuel Moto maps are close to what people get with auto tune I am tempted to go this way somehow as who knows when I will do cams or maybe 110" kit and this always give me option to send module back for reprogramming for new upgrade. $260 for this option sounds like money well spent considering what are other options.
So far it will be Power Vision or sending module to Fuel Moto. I guess it is time to speak with folks at Fuel Moto or ride there to get the job done.
in case I want to install SE air cleaner while I already have SE slip ons should I worry about any engine damage in case I want to ride it like that for let say 500 miles?
Last edited by Burbur2; Oct 21, 2017 at 10:23 AM.
Road Master
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,072
Likes: 212
From: Alabama
Thanks for all great replies while it is still difficult decision it was helpful as I was just about to pull the trigger at FP3 and then find out stage one is as far as this module is good for. At least now I know what my options are meaning Piwer Vision , Power Commander V or simply shipping my module to Fuel Moto for unlimited tunes as I go with mods.
Considering that looks like Fuel Moto maps are close to what people get with auto tune I am tempted to go this way somehow as who knows when I will do cams or maybe 110" kit and this always give me option to send module back for reprogramming for new upgrade. $260 for this option sounds like money well spent considering what are other options.
So far it will be Power Vision or sending module to Fuel Moto. I guess it is time to speak with folks at Fuel Moto or ride there to get the job done.
in case I want to install SE air cleaner while I already have SE slip ons should I worry about any engine damage in case I want to ride it like that for let say 500 miles?
Considering that looks like Fuel Moto maps are close to what people get with auto tune I am tempted to go this way somehow as who knows when I will do cams or maybe 110" kit and this always give me option to send module back for reprogramming for new upgrade. $260 for this option sounds like money well spent considering what are other options.
So far it will be Power Vision or sending module to Fuel Moto. I guess it is time to speak with folks at Fuel Moto or ride there to get the job done.
in case I want to install SE air cleaner while I already have SE slip ons should I worry about any engine damage in case I want to ride it like that for let say 500 miles?
FP3 supports upgraded cams so it will get you to stage 2.
The software is always being updated and will just get better as time goes on. People just like to pick on it.
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Road Warrior
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,712
Likes: 410
From: Puyallup, WA
I think you have to ask yourself "do you have to have the SE air cleaner on now, or wait until you get the appropriate fuel computer?" You can probably still have fun riding the bike the way it is currently.
Road Captain
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 634
Likes: 82
From: Mount Washington, Ky
If you can ride there OP that's the way I'd go. Guarantee it'll be done right by the best in the business. They can dyno tune it and show you how to use the Power Vision while you're there.