07 deuce, no front brake
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Joined: Jul 2022
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From: leftcoast
07 deuce, no front brake
Hey guys, was registered here years ago, but the forum no longer recognizes my info, so had to 'join' again.
I have an 07 Deuce, bought new, and just lost front brakes. No warning, no leaks etc. I just installed a master cylinder rebuild kit, cleaned the calipers and stuck in new pads. Still no brakes. Reverse bled it, then used a vacuum pump and then did it again with the gravity method. Still nothing. The pistons extend to a point that the pads contact the rotor, but that's it, nothing more. I'm strongly suspecting a bad brake line although I can see no deformation nor feel any soft spots.
Just thought I'd ask for some opinions before I start throwing $$ at it blindly.
Thanks
I have an 07 Deuce, bought new, and just lost front brakes. No warning, no leaks etc. I just installed a master cylinder rebuild kit, cleaned the calipers and stuck in new pads. Still no brakes. Reverse bled it, then used a vacuum pump and then did it again with the gravity method. Still nothing. The pistons extend to a point that the pads contact the rotor, but that's it, nothing more. I'm strongly suspecting a bad brake line although I can see no deformation nor feel any soft spots.
Just thought I'd ask for some opinions before I start throwing $$ at it blindly.
Thanks
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 14,061
Likes: 11,080
From: San Diego, CA
I have an 07 Deuce, bought new, and just lost front brakes. No warning, no leaks etc. I just installed a master cylinder rebuild kit, cleaned the calipers and stuck in new pads. Still no brakes. Reverse bled it, then used a vacuum pump and then did it again with the gravity method. Still nothing. The pistons extend to a point that the pads contact the rotor, but that's it, nothing more. I'm strongly suspecting a bad brake line although I can see no deformation nor feel any soft spots.
Just thought I'd ask for some opinions before I start throwing $$ at it blindly.
Thanks
Just curious as to what you mean by "just lost front brakes", "still no brakes", "still nothing", and "nothing more" .....?
What did the brake lever feel like at each of those moments... was the lever mushy or super firm, and wouldn't budge..?
If the lever doesn't move at all, if it's rock solid, that could be a blockage somewhere in the system.. If the lever is real mushy, it's possibly the master cylinder not pumping properly.
When you installed the master cylinder rebuild kit, did you bench bleed the master before hooking it up to the lines, so you knew it was working properly before connecting to the rest of the system?
The parts finder shows only one, one piece line between the master and the caliper. So there are only three parts to the front brake system.
Because of that, I would start at the top and work down...
Caution: Not sure when HD switched to DOT 4 from DOT 5... If you are using DOT 5, it could get messy, but won't hurt paint. If you have DOT 4, be very careful to contain all fluid, as it WILL hurt painted surfaces...
Bench bleed the master, or just disconnect the brake line and bleed the master on the bars...
If the master works well, and seems to be pumping firmly, then connect it to the brake line...
Remove the brake line from the caliper, and see if the master will then be able to pump fluid down the line, out the caliper banjo connection....
If that works, then connect the banjo bolt to the caliper and see if the master will then move the caliper and allow it to clamp the rotor....
Doing the above, if you have a blockage, should isolate where the blockage is...
Not knowing how it originally failed, or what "still nothing" means, my initial thought is there is a problem with the master both before and/or after the rebuild...
Keep us posted on the diagnosis...
Last edited by hattitude; Jul 5, 2022 at 11:46 PM.
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From: leftcoast
Sorry I was vague about the failure. And thank you for the response. I left my house and had brakes. 4 miles down the road the lever went right to the grip: no resistance at all. I felt like there was no fluid in the system, yet there was plenty of fluid in the reservoir. And as I said, no leaks. My first thought was that the master wasn't moving fluid at all, hense the rebuild kit. I did not bench bleed when I was done, just installed it and reverse bled the system. I pumped fluid up to the reservoir via the bleeder. When the reservoir was about half full I closed the bleeder and finished filling from the top. Next step was to reinstall the cap, then pulled the brake lever. No resistance, went right to the grip. That's when I bled again using a mighty-vac. Tried the lever again, no resistance. Next step was to open the reservior and the bleeder and let fluid flow. I also, with the bleeder open, pumped the lever and noted an increase of flow. I closed the bleeder, reinstalled the cap, then pumped the lever while watching the pads. I noted that the pistons did move such that the pads closed into contact with the rotor. I checked the fluid level again, then tried to apply the brakes. I get slight resistance, but the lever still contacts the grip with no appreciable brake application. Literally, contact without pressure is all I get between pads and rotors.
Again, thanks for the reply.
Again, thanks for the reply.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 14,061
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From: San Diego, CA
OK... with the symptoms and repair as you describe, it appears to be either air in the system or a bad master...
Since it happened suddenly, there was no fluid loss, sounds like you bled the system well, and the issue didn't change after the master rebuild.... I would focus on the master cylinder..
I'd check your rebuild work and bench bleed before installing it, to ensure you got it right.. Make sure you got all the parts installed correctly and the seals/o-rings in the correct places. Check the bore to make sure it's not corroded, but smooth, so it will seal...
Additionally, I believe Harley switched back to DOT 4 brake fluid around '05.. Can you confirm if you are using DOT 4 or DOT 5 brake fluid..? DOT 5 (silicone based) has some special challenges when bleeding, but I believe your year is in the OEM DOT 4 era...
Good luck with your repair...
Since it happened suddenly, there was no fluid loss, sounds like you bled the system well, and the issue didn't change after the master rebuild.... I would focus on the master cylinder..
I'd check your rebuild work and bench bleed before installing it, to ensure you got it right.. Make sure you got all the parts installed correctly and the seals/o-rings in the correct places. Check the bore to make sure it's not corroded, but smooth, so it will seal...
Additionally, I believe Harley switched back to DOT 4 brake fluid around '05.. Can you confirm if you are using DOT 4 or DOT 5 brake fluid..? DOT 5 (silicone based) has some special challenges when bleeding, but I believe your year is in the OEM DOT 4 era...
Good luck with your repair...
Last edited by hattitude; Jul 6, 2022 at 08:44 AM.
Road Master
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,114
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From: Kokomo, IN
Just a thought. This happened on mine. Got a new front tire installed, but I tried to do it myself 1st. Didn't have any luck so I had it installed at Cycle Gear.
I bent the front rotor working on it. When I installed it back, the brakes would bleed just fine.
Once the rotor spun, it would push the pads back out. Thus nothing at the handle or brake response.
Good luck!
I bent the front rotor working on it. When I installed it back, the brakes would bleed just fine.
Once the rotor spun, it would push the pads back out. Thus nothing at the handle or brake response.
Good luck!
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From: leftcoast
Thanks K. Your avatar alone was enough to brighten my day!
It got more interesting yesterday. I've experienced problems with bleeding m/c brakes in the past and there are times when it's just best to walk away and see what happens. So I did. I pulled the brake lever back, which applied a slight amount of pad pressure, and ziptied it to the grip. Tapped on the caliper and lines just to see if I could move any bubbles that might be in there. Next morning I tried to roll the bike out, but it wouldn't move easily. Seems that slight pressure on the pads was still holding (overnight) and just enough to stop the bike from rolling easily. Hmmm. I used the might-vac and bled 4 reservoirs worth of DOT 4 through the system. No improvement. Against all sound advice, I took it for a ride around the neighborhood just to see if vibration would work to my advantage. Nope.
So, I have to think the master cylinder and seals are good if it could hold pressure overnight. If the issue was a small bubble, I should be able to pump the lever to overcome.I think it's time to put her on the lift and just start tearing into it.
I'll post if I find a solution.
It got more interesting yesterday. I've experienced problems with bleeding m/c brakes in the past and there are times when it's just best to walk away and see what happens. So I did. I pulled the brake lever back, which applied a slight amount of pad pressure, and ziptied it to the grip. Tapped on the caliper and lines just to see if I could move any bubbles that might be in there. Next morning I tried to roll the bike out, but it wouldn't move easily. Seems that slight pressure on the pads was still holding (overnight) and just enough to stop the bike from rolling easily. Hmmm. I used the might-vac and bled 4 reservoirs worth of DOT 4 through the system. No improvement. Against all sound advice, I took it for a ride around the neighborhood just to see if vibration would work to my advantage. Nope.
So, I have to think the master cylinder and seals are good if it could hold pressure overnight. If the issue was a small bubble, I should be able to pump the lever to overcome.I think it's time to put her on the lift and just start tearing into it.
I'll post if I find a solution.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 14,061
Likes: 11,080
From: San Diego, CA
Thanks K. Your avatar alone was enough to brighten my day!
It got more interesting yesterday. I've experienced problems with bleeding m/c brakes in the past and there are times when it's just best to walk away and see what happens. So I did. I pulled the brake lever back, which applied a slight amount of pad pressure, and ziptied it to the grip. Tapped on the caliper and lines just to see if I could move any bubbles that might be in there. Next morning I tried to roll the bike out, but it wouldn't move easily. Seems that slight pressure on the pads was still holding (overnight) and just enough to stop the bike from rolling easily. Hmmm. I used the might-vac and bled 4 reservoirs worth of DOT 4 through the system. No improvement. Against all sound advice, I took it for a ride around the neighborhood just to see if vibration would work to my advantage. Nope.
So, I have to think the master cylinder and seals are good if it could hold pressure overnight. If the issue was a small bubble, I should be able to pump the lever to overcome.I think it's time to put her on the lift and just start tearing into it.
I'll post if I find a solution.
It got more interesting yesterday. I've experienced problems with bleeding m/c brakes in the past and there are times when it's just best to walk away and see what happens. So I did. I pulled the brake lever back, which applied a slight amount of pad pressure, and ziptied it to the grip. Tapped on the caliper and lines just to see if I could move any bubbles that might be in there. Next morning I tried to roll the bike out, but it wouldn't move easily. Seems that slight pressure on the pads was still holding (overnight) and just enough to stop the bike from rolling easily. Hmmm. I used the might-vac and bled 4 reservoirs worth of DOT 4 through the system. No improvement. Against all sound advice, I took it for a ride around the neighborhood just to see if vibration would work to my advantage. Nope.
So, I have to think the master cylinder and seals are good if it could hold pressure overnight. If the issue was a small bubble, I should be able to pump the lever to overcome.I think it's time to put her on the lift and just start tearing into it.
I'll post if I find a solution.
I would take the master cylinder apart, check it over carefully, bench bleed it, and then I would know for sure if it's the issue or not....
FWIW....
That zip-tie/brake lever trick works great with DOT 5 (silicone base) brake fluid, as it builds and holds micro-bubbles... That's why DOT 5 doesn't play well with ABS, and why the MoCo went back to DOT 4 after using DOT 5 for many years (approx 1975 to 2006/7). You shouldn't need that trick with DOT 4 brake fluid...
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From: leftcoast
Hattitude, I took your advise and pulled the master.I watched a youtube video of a guy doing this and tried to follow his instructions, but would like to run it by you to see if you concur.
On the bench, with the lever relaxed, I get no fluid leak or seapage. I placed my thumb over the outlet hole and pulled the lever back. I wasn't able to hold full pressure, and when I removed my thumb I got a spray and the sound of the pressure release.
Did I test correctly? And is there anything else I should try before reinstalling?
Thank you for your time through this. Really appreciate it.
On the bench, with the lever relaxed, I get no fluid leak or seapage. I placed my thumb over the outlet hole and pulled the lever back. I wasn't able to hold full pressure, and when I removed my thumb I got a spray and the sound of the pressure release.
Did I test correctly? And is there anything else I should try before reinstalling?
Thank you for your time through this. Really appreciate it.
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Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 14,061
Likes: 11,080
From: San Diego, CA
Hattitude, I took your advise and pulled the master.I watched a youtube video of a guy doing this and tried to follow his instructions, but would like to run it by you to see if you concur.
On the bench, with the lever relaxed, I get no fluid leak or seapage. I placed my thumb over the outlet hole and pulled the lever back. I wasn't able to hold full pressure, and when I removed my thumb I got a spray and the sound of the pressure release.
Did I test correctly? And is there anything else I should try before reinstalling?
Thank you for your time through this. Really appreciate it.
On the bench, with the lever relaxed, I get no fluid leak or seapage. I placed my thumb over the outlet hole and pulled the lever back. I wasn't able to hold full pressure, and when I removed my thumb I got a spray and the sound of the pressure release.
Did I test correctly? And is there anything else I should try before reinstalling?
Thank you for your time through this. Really appreciate it.
Sounds good to me.... Once the master has checked good, you can then focus on the other parts, with some degree of confidence....
Here is the video I saved, and referenced when I rebuilt a master cylinder several years ago..
I made sure the master cylinder didn't leak before moving the piston..... Then I made sure I got a real good spray/ sound from the master, like he did when he pumped it towards the end with the brake lever, before calling it good..... I could also feel the pressure trying to push my finger off the output hole...
Sounds like you have been able to eliminate the master cylinder from the problem....
That just leaves the brake lines or the caliper...
Do you have compressed air available to do a quick check on the brake line...?? I'd start with the pressure set real low, like 5 psi or less... If low pressure vents through easily, it suggests the line may be good... If you hit it with high pressure right off, you could just temporarily move a piece of delaminated hose wall out of the way...
Then on to the caliper.....!
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From: leftcoast
Got it. It was a bleed problem.
As I mentioned, I reverse bled, gravity bled and mighty-vac bled. After rechecking the master, and reinstalling, I bled again. Ran a whole pint of fluid through it but still couldn't get the air out. What I did was to remove the caliper from the bike but left it attached to the line. Using a plastic hammer I started tapping the caliper while rotating it in every direction imaginable and repeatedly. After about a good 2 minutes of this I saw the fluid level had dropped noticeably. I put the caliper back on and started gently and quickly pumping the lever in short strokes. Up came the air, and now I have brakes.
Hoping this might help someone else down the line. Clearly the air was trapped in the caliper and no amount of bleeding was going to get it.
Thanks for the assist here.
As I mentioned, I reverse bled, gravity bled and mighty-vac bled. After rechecking the master, and reinstalling, I bled again. Ran a whole pint of fluid through it but still couldn't get the air out. What I did was to remove the caliper from the bike but left it attached to the line. Using a plastic hammer I started tapping the caliper while rotating it in every direction imaginable and repeatedly. After about a good 2 minutes of this I saw the fluid level had dropped noticeably. I put the caliper back on and started gently and quickly pumping the lever in short strokes. Up came the air, and now I have brakes.
Hoping this might help someone else down the line. Clearly the air was trapped in the caliper and no amount of bleeding was going to get it.
Thanks for the assist here.
Last edited by stillkickin'; Jul 8, 2022 at 07:20 PM.
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