2000 Fatboy puking oil.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 14,156
Likes: 11,247
From: San Diego, CA
If you use the Cyco pads, be absolutely sure you do it correctly and it's secure back on the arms you rebuild.
There has only one USER who has said pads last longer but his longer at the time was not that many miles.
Why people use them is their cheaper. Once any of them cook in hot oil, they get brittle. All it would take is a few WOT or hard engine braking to break them.
Please share your source for this information....
I have read numerous accounts from people on forums, who have used Cyco pads on spring tensioners and claimed to have received much better wear than OEM.
Here is a screenshot I saved. It is from a video by a guy showing how to replace the cam tensioners. He claims that he replace both these tensioners at the same time, 15K miles ago, one with OEM and one with Cyco, to see how they compared. He was checking his "test" and now needed to replace the OEM tensioner again.
The OEM is on the left of this pic, and the Cyco is on the right. He said the white Cyco pad was stained this color from 15K miles in an oil environment. I have noticed the color change to Cyco pads myself.
I have only personally inspected one set of the three sets of Cyco shoes I have installed. On my 2001 Springer, I replaced a 16 year old set of OEM tensioners at 11k miles. The OEM pads both showed good wear, but were pitted. I consider pitting to be the same as "cracks". I went into the cam chest with only 7K miles on the tensioners I had replaced. Both Cyco pads showed less wear and NO pitting. That i sonly 64% of the mileage at 25% of the time of use when I changed them for the first time. Hardly a definitive test, but just sharing my personal observations.
My conclusions/opinion that the Cyco Pads wear better than OEM are certainly anecdotal. That is all I have. Unfortunately, I have not found a scientific test or study to consult to form my opinion.
I suspect your info is also anecdotal. However, if you can direct me to any scientific study or test, that shows there is no advantage to using Cyco tensioner pads, I will gladly change my recommendation on this topic.
I am always willing to learn....
Last edited by hattitude; Apr 4, 2024 at 09:20 PM.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 14,156
Likes: 11,247
From: San Diego, CA
There is NOT supposed to be a plug in that hole. The spring and steel plunger for the pressure relief is inboard that roll pin you see.
https://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/...ku_id=10026846
Here is a page from a Factory service manual that explains how the oil flows from the tank, through the cam plate, to the pump and then through the engine... It should help you understand your engine's oiling system...
The big question now, is how long, time & miles, did your buddy (and you) ride that bike around with no oil pressure.... ??
I'd fix the cam chest, then do a cylinder inspection with a borescope, a compression test, followed up by a leak down test if indicated.... before putting that engine back into service.. but that's just me..
Good luck and keep us posted..
Last edited by hattitude; Apr 4, 2024 at 10:33 PM.
Thread Starter
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Intermediate
Joined: Apr 2024
Posts: 41
Likes: 8
From: AZ
Those pieces could mess up the oil pump, cam plate, etc.... But probably not...
if you find a good independent shop, they are able to "clean" everything up, and there is no peripheral damage other than the tensioners, it will cost you labor, gaskets, and new spring tensioners. That could be less than a couple hundred in parts..
I would have them replace the inner cam bearings to the better Koyo B-148 bearings ($12.00 each), while it is apart.
I would also use the Cyco brand tensioner pads instead of OEM. Cyco Pads are better than OEM, and you can get a set of the pads only, for like $20.00.
If there is no damage to the spring tensioners, just buying new pads plus the labor to mount the new pads on your old tensioners, would probably be more expensive than buying a new set of Twin Power Can Tensioners. You get two, one for inside the plate and one for the outside of the plate for about $33.00 each. Twin Power uses Cyco pads on their tensioners (at least they did several years ago).
There are other, more expensive ways to fix this issue. Upgrade to a Harley SE cam plate/hydraulic tensioner upgrade, upgrade cam plate with hydraulic tensioners to a newer '07+ design (that would need new cams + tune), or a conversion to gear drive cams (if your run-out is within spec). But they will obviously be more money.
Also if any peripheral damage is found, that will also up the cost....
Sorry for your misfortune, but it is well known, except for a group of naysayers, that the 88" engines with spring cam tensioners should get them replaced. You have found out the hard way, why that is so heavily recommended..
Good luck with your decisions and your repair.
PS-
Ranger is correct... If you have basic mechanical skills, have a factory service manual for your bike, and the time.... It's not hard to remove and replace that stuff.
I've gone into the cam chest of Twin Cam engines at least 6 times now. The first one, I was a little apprehensive.... but now I realize it's pretty easy.. just take your time and pay attention to the small details.. There are also several youtube videos, a couple from S&S and FuelMoto about installing cams (covers the cam chest disassembly and re-assembly) that are pretty good.
if you find a good independent shop, they are able to "clean" everything up, and there is no peripheral damage other than the tensioners, it will cost you labor, gaskets, and new spring tensioners. That could be less than a couple hundred in parts..
I would have them replace the inner cam bearings to the better Koyo B-148 bearings ($12.00 each), while it is apart.
I would also use the Cyco brand tensioner pads instead of OEM. Cyco Pads are better than OEM, and you can get a set of the pads only, for like $20.00.
If there is no damage to the spring tensioners, just buying new pads plus the labor to mount the new pads on your old tensioners, would probably be more expensive than buying a new set of Twin Power Can Tensioners. You get two, one for inside the plate and one for the outside of the plate for about $33.00 each. Twin Power uses Cyco pads on their tensioners (at least they did several years ago).
There are other, more expensive ways to fix this issue. Upgrade to a Harley SE cam plate/hydraulic tensioner upgrade, upgrade cam plate with hydraulic tensioners to a newer '07+ design (that would need new cams + tune), or a conversion to gear drive cams (if your run-out is within spec). But they will obviously be more money.
Also if any peripheral damage is found, that will also up the cost....
Sorry for your misfortune, but it is well known, except for a group of naysayers, that the 88" engines with spring cam tensioners should get them replaced. You have found out the hard way, why that is so heavily recommended..
Good luck with your decisions and your repair.
PS-
Ranger is correct... If you have basic mechanical skills, have a factory service manual for your bike, and the time.... It's not hard to remove and replace that stuff.
I've gone into the cam chest of Twin Cam engines at least 6 times now. The first one, I was a little apprehensive.... but now I realize it's pretty easy.. just take your time and pay attention to the small details.. There are also several youtube videos, a couple from S&S and FuelMoto about installing cams (covers the cam chest disassembly and re-assembly) that are pretty good.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 14,156
Likes: 11,247
From: San Diego, CA
FYI...
From cheapest to most expensive:
1) Change the spring tensioner pads to Cyco pads- I have done this to two Twin Cams. Both don't get a ton of mileage and are only Stage I mods. My cost for parts is about $250, including new inner cam bearings, new spring tensioners with Cyco Pads, new gaskets, and new fluids. Should be good for 40-60K miles.... possibly more
2) Use the Harley Screamin' Eagle camplate/hydraulic tensioner upgrade- The kit is $574.95 list at a dealer. Does not include gaskets, fluids, and new inner cam bearings- I won't use this method because it is expensive for what it does. Because it keeps the OEM cams, the chain between the cams on the back of the plate is still the silent link-style chain. Some think the link-style chain ads to the excessive wear along with the spring tension on the tensioner pads. Could be good for 100K+ miles, if the link chain doesn't eat into the cam side tensioner pad.
3) Upgrade to '07+ cam plate, with hydraulic tensioners. This uses new conversion cams and roller chains on front and back of cam plate. It will also require a new tune for the new cams. This is the best, cheapest way to go, if you want new cams at the same time- Last one of these I did was several years ago. I believe all the parts, minus the tuner/tune, was about $700. Could be good for 100K+ miles
4) Replace tensioners with gear drive cams.- Obviously, the best fix, but your engine needs to qualify for this upgrade. It must have a total indicated runout (TIR) of 0.003" or less. - I have gear drive cams in one of my engines, but it was part of a major engine build, and I don't have cam chest only costs. This will be the most expensive upgrade with probably close to $2K in parts. If properly installed, being sure to check TIR (0.003" or less) and check/set proper gear lash, could last well over 100K miles.
The above info is from memory and older prices. It should be good for comparison, but probably not reflective of current turn-key prices. If you have a shop do it, their labor rate will greatly affect your costs, but the order of least expensive to most expensive won't change because of labor rates.
I hope this quick summary helps...
Last edited by hattitude; Apr 6, 2024 at 06:48 PM.
Thread Starter
|
Intermediate
Joined: Apr 2024
Posts: 41
Likes: 8
From: AZ
FYI...
From cheapest to most expensive:
1) Change the spring tensioner pads to Cyco pads- I have done this to two Twin Cams. Both don't get a ton of mileage and are only Stage I mods. My cost for parts is about $250, including new inner cam bearings, new spring tensioners with Cyco Pads, new gaskets, and new fluids. Should be good for 40-60K miles.... possibly more
2) Use the Harley Screamin' Eagle camplate/hydraulic tensioner upgrade- The kit is $574.95 list at a dealer. Does not include gaskets, fluids, and new inner cam bearings- I won't use this method because it is expensive for what it does. Because it keeps the OEM cams, the chain between the cams on the back of the plate is still the silent link-style chain. Some think the link-style chain ads to the excessive wear along with the spring tension on the tensioner pads. Could be good for 100K+ miles, if the link chain doesn't eat into the cam side tensioner pad.
3) Upgrade to '07+ cam plate, with hydraulic tensioners. This uses new conversion cams and roller chains on front and back of cam plate. It will also require a new tune for the new cams. This is the best, cheapest way to go, if you want new cams at the same time- Last one of these I did was several years ago. I believe all the parts, minus the tuner/tune, was about $700. Could be good for 100K+ miles
4) Replace tensioners with gear drive cams.- Obviously, the best fix, but your engine needs to qualify for this upgrade. It must have a total indicated runout (TIR) of 0.003" or less. - I have gear drive cams in one of my engines, but it was part of a major engine build, and I don't have cam chest only costs. This will be the most expensive upgrade with probably close to $2K in parts. If properly installed, being sure to check TIR (0.003" or less) and check/set proper gear lash, could last well over 100K miles.
The above info is from memory and older prices. It should be good for comparison, but probably not reflective of current turn-key prices. If you have a shop do it, their labor rate will greatly affect your costs, but the order of least expensive to most expensive won't change because of labor rates.
I hope this quick summary helps...
From cheapest to most expensive:
1) Change the spring tensioner pads to Cyco pads- I have done this to two Twin Cams. Both don't get a ton of mileage and are only Stage I mods. My cost for parts is about $250, including new inner cam bearings, new spring tensioners with Cyco Pads, new gaskets, and new fluids. Should be good for 40-60K miles.... possibly more
2) Use the Harley Screamin' Eagle camplate/hydraulic tensioner upgrade- The kit is $574.95 list at a dealer. Does not include gaskets, fluids, and new inner cam bearings- I won't use this method because it is expensive for what it does. Because it keeps the OEM cams, the chain between the cams on the back of the plate is still the silent link-style chain. Some think the link-style chain ads to the excessive wear along with the spring tension on the tensioner pads. Could be good for 100K+ miles, if the link chain doesn't eat into the cam side tensioner pad.
3) Upgrade to '07+ cam plate, with hydraulic tensioners. This uses new conversion cams and roller chains on front and back of cam plate. It will also require a new tune for the new cams. This is the best, cheapest way to go, if you want new cams at the same time- Last one of these I did was several years ago. I believe all the parts, minus the tuner/tune, was about $700. Could be good for 100K+ miles
4) Replace tensioners with gear drive cams.- Obviously, the best fix, but your engine needs to qualify for this upgrade. It must have a total indicated runout (TIR) of 0.003" or less. - I have gear drive cams in one of my engines, but it was part of a major engine build, and I don't have cam chest only costs. This will be the most expensive upgrade with probably close to $2K in parts. If properly installed, being sure to check TIR (0.003" or less) and check/set proper gear lash, could last well over 100K miles.
The above info is from memory and older prices. It should be good for comparison, but probably not reflective of current turn-key prices. If you have a shop do it, their labor rate will greatly affect your costs, but the order of least expensive to most expensive won't change because of labor rates.
I hope this quick summary helps...
Would cost me $2100 for parts
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 14,156
Likes: 11,247
From: San Diego, CA
However, I just checked my my parts cost for that upgrade on one of my bikes and it was back in 2018. I thought it was much more recent than that.... my bad...
My parts (minus tuner), were $1100 in 2018. If his parts include a tuner or tune license and tune, that could be a fair number for 2024...
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Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,117
Likes: 1,145
From: Directly above the center of the Earth
If parts are that much, you could damn near buy a nice banged up rat bike scoot for that price. Sell that thing you have and get a shovelhead or evo bike and not worry about those damned cam things. I *hated* having to check on those things every ~5000 miles when I had an '09 Super Glide. It was just one of the things that turned me off 'computerized' bikes. Once that thing blew up on me after 87,000 miles, I sold it for $1500 and got me an evo Super Glide. Had it for about 5 years before a cager t-boned me. Now I have an evo Heritage Classic. No one on the planet has enough money to give me to go back to using anything that doesn't have a carburetor.
Road Warrior
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,719
Likes: 91
From: Florida
Gents, could the buddy have done something to damage the bike, or was it just coincidental that the tensioner STB while in his care and control? @OP, was the oil light on when your buddy returned the bike? Have you asked him the timeline?
I'd never loan my bike out, nor would any of my biker friends ever ask. But that's just me.
I'd never loan my bike out, nor would any of my biker friends ever ask. But that's just me.