Harley will close five plants for a week
Road Warrior
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,600
Likes: 2
From: Windsor, CO
RE: Harley will close five plants for a week
Holy **** ... you guys can sure dish it out but you can't take it ... Sorry, boys, but it was more joke than anything else. But I guess my little t-shirt must have set off some pretty deep feelings, and unfortunately some proof of real misunderstanding when it comes to being a real American.
Let me first bring this back to a motorcycle theme. How many of you are familiar with the annual Trail of Tears Commerative Ride held each year from Chattanooga, TN, to Waterloo, AL.? I've been fortunate enough to ride in it, and I'd highly recommend it not only as a good ride but a chance to see another side of "American" motorcycling.
My original post was not so much a slam against anyone as it was meant to point out that being a real American might not be what some think. And based on some of the replies I'm guessing that a few folks really don't understand much about the Native Americans or what the concepts of "ownership" are. So, at the risk of being chastised by the moderators, I'm going to get serious for a moment and try to spread a little truth about some of the "real Americans" and their concepts of ownership.
Let me start with Voyager. My friend, or at least fellow HDF member, the "white union workers" reference was a play on words; something you've obviously misinterpretted to mean modern union workers. You missed the joke. If you want to be mad because you didn't get the joke then that's okay, but at least take some time to understand what you're now so mad about. I certainly salute your right to an opinion about buying "American," but understand that some folks just may not see it hat way ... and they may also ride Harleys or buy "American" products.
In 1838 (the year of the first forced migrations of the Cherokee Nation) the US Army wore blue uniforms, and they was known as the Union Army. Thus, the reference to "white union workers" (and please note the original post also mentioned army) was accurate since they were all "white" (blacks were not allowed in the combat military units at that time) and they were all "Union workers."
Now for my favorite part of this thread ... land ownership. You want to stick with that story that the original peoples of this continent were "nomadic" or didn't have a concept of ownership?
Really? Okay, but here's a few things you may not have known.
Contrary to popular belief, and especially contrary to 1950s style fictionalizations of Native Americans -- which seems to be where some of you get your understanding -- most Native American Tribes were NOT nomadic. More particularly, the Cherokee Tribe, which is the one I am referring to in my original post, was most exclusively a settled nation primarily in Georgia. Not only where they non nomadic but they had a very well defined system of laws, including ownership rights. In fact, they held those concepts so dearly they were willing to die for the rights that some of you so easily dismiss. Being a real "American" to a 19th century Cherokee was just as patriotic as being an "American" today.
Here's where things went really wrong. In 1830 the Cherokee Nation actually tried to stem the efforts by the United States (and the individual states such as Georgia) in taking their land by suing the State of Georgia. See, the Cherokees figured that if the expansionist of the time didn't want to follow the Cherokee law on land ownership then at least they may follow their own (U.S.) law. Unfortunately, the Marshall court (U.S. Supreme Court of 1831, with John Marshall as Chief Justice) refused the claim by simply saying that the Cherokee Nation was not a "sovereign and independant nation." See, Cherokee Nation v. Georgie, 30 U.S. 1 (1831). In short, even though the Cherokee nation had a true concept of ownership -- with a legal system to back it up
Let me first bring this back to a motorcycle theme. How many of you are familiar with the annual Trail of Tears Commerative Ride held each year from Chattanooga, TN, to Waterloo, AL.? I've been fortunate enough to ride in it, and I'd highly recommend it not only as a good ride but a chance to see another side of "American" motorcycling.
My original post was not so much a slam against anyone as it was meant to point out that being a real American might not be what some think. And based on some of the replies I'm guessing that a few folks really don't understand much about the Native Americans or what the concepts of "ownership" are. So, at the risk of being chastised by the moderators, I'm going to get serious for a moment and try to spread a little truth about some of the "real Americans" and their concepts of ownership.
Let me start with Voyager. My friend, or at least fellow HDF member, the "white union workers" reference was a play on words; something you've obviously misinterpretted to mean modern union workers. You missed the joke. If you want to be mad because you didn't get the joke then that's okay, but at least take some time to understand what you're now so mad about. I certainly salute your right to an opinion about buying "American," but understand that some folks just may not see it hat way ... and they may also ride Harleys or buy "American" products.
In 1838 (the year of the first forced migrations of the Cherokee Nation) the US Army wore blue uniforms, and they was known as the Union Army. Thus, the reference to "white union workers" (and please note the original post also mentioned army) was accurate since they were all "white" (blacks were not allowed in the combat military units at that time) and they were all "Union workers."
Now for my favorite part of this thread ... land ownership. You want to stick with that story that the original peoples of this continent were "nomadic" or didn't have a concept of ownership?
Really? Okay, but here's a few things you may not have known.
Contrary to popular belief, and especially contrary to 1950s style fictionalizations of Native Americans -- which seems to be where some of you get your understanding -- most Native American Tribes were NOT nomadic. More particularly, the Cherokee Tribe, which is the one I am referring to in my original post, was most exclusively a settled nation primarily in Georgia. Not only where they non nomadic but they had a very well defined system of laws, including ownership rights. In fact, they held those concepts so dearly they were willing to die for the rights that some of you so easily dismiss. Being a real "American" to a 19th century Cherokee was just as patriotic as being an "American" today.
Here's where things went really wrong. In 1830 the Cherokee Nation actually tried to stem the efforts by the United States (and the individual states such as Georgia) in taking their land by suing the State of Georgia. See, the Cherokees figured that if the expansionist of the time didn't want to follow the Cherokee law on land ownership then at least they may follow their own (U.S.) law. Unfortunately, the Marshall court (U.S. Supreme Court of 1831, with John Marshall as Chief Justice) refused the claim by simply saying that the Cherokee Nation was not a "sovereign and independant nation." See, Cherokee Nation v. Georgie, 30 U.S. 1 (1831). In short, even though the Cherokee nation had a true concept of ownership -- with a legal system to back it up
Tourer
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 394
Likes: 0
RE: Harley will close five plants for a week
ORIGINAL: sportncruise
This statement is so full of holes! Many "imports" have factories right here in the great USofA and many Americans make a living off of them.
When I can go to a japanese bike shop that looks like it had not been remodeled since the building was built in the 1970's and is so small that you can barely get around.
Then go to any harley shop and they have these hugely expensive brand new buildings with more floor space that the lobby of a five star hotel, I can see where my money is going. Harley's could cost less as their is nothing about them technologicallythat costs $20,000. We pay this price because of the name and a life style.
If they did smarter business practices instead of trying to impress everyone with all of this extravagance they would be better off.
I say all of this because I want to see them succeed and to be around for years to come.
Rant off, Flame suit on!
ORIGINAL: voyager1
No shock . This entire country is in a world of hurt. One word : Imports . Hardly nothing made here anymore !!
No shock . This entire country is in a world of hurt. One word : Imports . Hardly nothing made here anymore !!
When I can go to a japanese bike shop that looks like it had not been remodeled since the building was built in the 1970's and is so small that you can barely get around.
Then go to any harley shop and they have these hugely expensive brand new buildings with more floor space that the lobby of a five star hotel, I can see where my money is going. Harley's could cost less as their is nothing about them technologicallythat costs $20,000. We pay this price because of the name and a life style.
If they did smarter business practices instead of trying to impress everyone with all of this extravagance they would be better off.
I say all of this because I want to see them succeed and to be around for years to come.
Rant off, Flame suit on!
[sm=rant.gif]It might help if the japs weren't aloud to break copyrights and make cheap bikes that only look like HARLEY DAVIDSONS.And why don't we tax and tarriff the sh&t out of there products like they do ours?
Tourer
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 394
Likes: 0
RE: Harley will close five plants for a week
ORIGINAL: voyager1
Yep.i bet you live and breathe at wally world too. It is a great place,right ? We can't buy much American anymore. But we need to buy and be american as much as we can. Don't go whinning when you job goes south to Mexico.... See ya at the wally world gretters both,LOL. People get confused,they think because it's built here it is American .... Dang man, wake up .
ORIGINAL: Helix
Oh crap here we go again about buy American. While you type away on your Foreign made computer - go watch TV on your Foreign made TV , cut your grass with foreign mowers etc etc etc the list can go on forever. Give me a break dude, this buy American crap is so over inflated. My American Car ( Chrysler ) was built in Mexico. Strangly my FOREIGN Trucka Toyota was built right here in the USA by Americans, who get paid and spend thier money in our stores and help our own economy.The only thing American about Ford - GM - Chrysler Etc is the company Names. They import Foreign parts to build American Cars.
Tell me how Toyota - Honda - Hyndai etc can open plants right here in the good Ole USA, Hire American Workers, pay them decent wages, medical , Dental , 401K , and retirement and make Nice profits every quarter? All the while American companys are farming out work to India, China, Phillipines etc etc? Im a Union man too , but its wrong when our comoanys tell us they are losing money just because they cant keep up with health costs , cover retirements etc etc. That a load of crap. Deep Six the Buy American crap......................................
Oh crap here we go again about buy American. While you type away on your Foreign made computer - go watch TV on your Foreign made TV , cut your grass with foreign mowers etc etc etc the list can go on forever. Give me a break dude, this buy American crap is so over inflated. My American Car ( Chrysler ) was built in Mexico. Strangly my FOREIGN Trucka Toyota was built right here in the USA by Americans, who get paid and spend thier money in our stores and help our own economy.The only thing American about Ford - GM - Chrysler Etc is the company Names. They import Foreign parts to build American Cars.
Tell me how Toyota - Honda - Hyndai etc can open plants right here in the good Ole USA, Hire American Workers, pay them decent wages, medical , Dental , 401K , and retirement and make Nice profits every quarter? All the while American companys are farming out work to India, China, Phillipines etc etc? Im a Union man too , but its wrong when our comoanys tell us they are losing money just because they cant keep up with health costs , cover retirements etc etc. That a load of crap. Deep Six the Buy American crap......................................
AMEN!!!!!!!
I apoligize for using the word jap.
Road Warrior
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,727
Likes: 2
From: North Carolina
RE: Harley will close five plants for a week
not to bust a thread which has already taken more turns than mapquest directions...............but isn't that a smokin' picture of Jennifer Aniston in FatboyUSA's sig? [8D]
Road Captain
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 508
Likes: 0
From:
RE: Harley will close five plants for a week
[quote]ORIGINAL: Bikenator
[*]Ownership is the state or fact of exclusive possession or control of property, which may be an object, land/real estate, intellectual property or some other kind of property. It is embodied in an ownership right also referred to as title.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ownership[*]The right to possess and use property to the exclusion of others.
www.americantitleco.biz/glossary.html
Here's a couple of definitions...note the use of the word "exclusive".
No one had exclusive use of this land back then. The Indians claims
to the contrary were not "legit" by any reasonable definition. They
did not have the exclusive rightto exclude others from sea to shining sea,
contrary to what some apologists seem to think. Bitchin, moaning and calling
the early pioneers and settlers of this nation "terro
ORIGINAL: sportncruise
What constitutes ownership of land? When the settlers came it was simply going out and building a house on it or such and it was considered theirs. Just because the settlers didn't see the indians claim as ligit doesn't mean they were right. In the end strength in numbers won out and that still didn't make it right just how it ended up.
If someone stronger came in and took us out now and made it their country our laws wouldn't mean crap either. GET A GRIP!
ORIGINAL: Bikenator
Agree with most of what you've wrote, but disagree and take offense to that POS T shirt.
Indigenous, nomadic tribal groups on this continent didn't "own it, they were using it. To say
or imply they had rights of ownership is akin to saying the Bedouins "own" the Saharah.
They had no rights of ownership, they merely used it, as did others.
Many American tribes didn't like the way the early settlers "used/abused" what they considered
their land (as though it was owned by them to begin with). This caused many bloody battles, treachery
on both sides was rampant. In the end, the indigentsgot their *** kicked. End of story. Dissing either
sideover ancient history andinferring that my ancestors were "terrorists" really pisses me off.
ORIGINAL: doc_cj
Item 1 -- The plant closings were part of the contract negotiations last year. The "union" went on strike to earn the right to be shut down this year. So it ain't a real surprise.
Item 2 -- Stocks hit a record high twice this year, so the economy ain't hurting too bad. Yeah, house sales are down, but when the economy is put into perspective it is as strong as it was in 1952.
Item 3 -- Yep, Harley has seen similar slow downs. How about the period from 1956-59? My recollection of the Harley history is that the Panheads were not selling so well by '57, and that's why they went with the actuated rear and next model Hydra Glide. Market changes usually bring innovation and new models ... same as '07 and '08.
Item last ... and this one is going to be fun ...
Okay, just for grins ... let's define "american." My ancestors were originally in Florida and were marched by you white union workers (those in the blue army uniforms, mind you) to Oklahoma. Does that mean you're going to send all your business to the reservations? Or will you continue to buy from those overseas bassards who came from Europe and stole our land? 
Item 1 -- The plant closings were part of the contract negotiations last year. The "union" went on strike to earn the right to be shut down this year. So it ain't a real surprise.
Item 2 -- Stocks hit a record high twice this year, so the economy ain't hurting too bad. Yeah, house sales are down, but when the economy is put into perspective it is as strong as it was in 1952.
Item 3 -- Yep, Harley has seen similar slow downs. How about the period from 1956-59? My recollection of the Harley history is that the Panheads were not selling so well by '57, and that's why they went with the actuated rear and next model Hydra Glide. Market changes usually bring innovation and new models ... same as '07 and '08.
Item last ... and this one is going to be fun ...
ORIGINAL: voyager1
But we need to buy and be american as much as we can.
But we need to buy and be american as much as we can.
Indigenous, nomadic tribal groups on this continent didn't "own it, they were using it. To say
or imply they had rights of ownership is akin to saying the Bedouins "own" the Saharah.
They had no rights of ownership, they merely used it, as did others.
Many American tribes didn't like the way the early settlers "used/abused" what they considered
their land (as though it was owned by them to begin with). This caused many bloody battles, treachery
on both sides was rampant. In the end, the indigentsgot their *** kicked. End of story. Dissing either
sideover ancient history andinferring that my ancestors were "terrorists" really pisses me off.
If someone stronger came in and took us out now and made it their country our laws wouldn't mean crap either. GET A GRIP!
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ownership[*]The right to possess and use property to the exclusion of others.
www.americantitleco.biz/glossary.html
Here's a couple of definitions...note the use of the word "exclusive".
No one had exclusive use of this land back then. The Indians claims
to the contrary were not "legit" by any reasonable definition. They
did not have the exclusive rightto exclude others from sea to shining sea,
contrary to what some apologists seem to think. Bitchin, moaning and calling
the early pioneers and settlers of this nation "terro
Thread Starter
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Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,432
Likes: 0
From: SW Ohio
6th Gear
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
From:
RE: Harley will close five plants for a week
I blame TV! All the shows that were on the last few years, the biker build offs, Jessie, the Paul’s, got all the wanna be bikers buying bikes the cant afford, I
hear stories all the time of guys taking huge loans and being up side down for years and now can't trade them in. The bike manufacturers jumped in on it and flooded the market just in time for the masses too loose interest, more concerned with whatever the latest trend is. Back in the '90's if you wanted a new Harley you went on a waiting list, I had friends waiting a 6 months for a Softail. Harley needs to cut back even more, bring the mystic back to the brand.
hear stories all the time of guys taking huge loans and being up side down for years and now can't trade them in. The bike manufacturers jumped in on it and flooded the market just in time for the masses too loose interest, more concerned with whatever the latest trend is. Back in the '90's if you wanted a new Harley you went on a waiting list, I had friends waiting a 6 months for a Softail. Harley needs to cut back even more, bring the mystic back to the brand.
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Thread Starter
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Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,432
Likes: 0
From: SW Ohio
RE: Harley will close five plants for a week
ORIGINAL: spider424
I blame TV! All the shows that were on the last few years, the biker build offs, Jessie, the Paul’s, got all the wanna be bikers buying bikes the cant afford, I
hear stories all the time of guys taking huge loans and being up side down for years and now can't trade them in. The bike manufacturers jumped in on it and flooded the market just in time for the masses too loose interest, more concerned with whatever the latest trend is. Back in the '90's if you wanted a new Harley you went on a waiting list, I had friends waiting a 6 months for a Softail. Harley needs to cut back even more, bring the mystic back to the brand.
I blame TV! All the shows that were on the last few years, the biker build offs, Jessie, the Paul’s, got all the wanna be bikers buying bikes the cant afford, I
hear stories all the time of guys taking huge loans and being up side down for years and now can't trade them in. The bike manufacturers jumped in on it and flooded the market just in time for the masses too loose interest, more concerned with whatever the latest trend is. Back in the '90's if you wanted a new Harley you went on a waiting list, I had friends waiting a 6 months for a Softail. Harley needs to cut back even more, bring the mystic back to the brand.
