Question re D&D Fatcat and Mapping
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Joined: Jun 2009
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From: orlando, fl
Question re D&D Fatcat and Mapping
Well I finally replaced my Vance & Hines BSS with a Fatcat exhaust on my 07 Deluxe. Overall, I'm very happy with the results. Definitely more low end grunt and a lot quieter at cruising speeds. My only concern is it seems a little less strong at very high rpm. But I run the SE211 cam, and that's a screamer when you get above 4,000 rpm. My seat of the pants tells me the bike doesn't have the same high end pull. My mechanic told me he installed the Fatcat without any remapping. He said to ride it and see how it felt. I'm wondering if I need to remap. The throttle response is excellent, no backfiring or any stumbles, but like I said, it seems a little flatter at high rpm. Anyone out there running the Fatcat with the SE211 cam on a 96 incher? If so I'd like to see your map.
R.I.P. BROTHER
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,076
Likes: 6
From: Colorado Springs
Nice move on the Fat Cat...But the BSS is actually a very good 2-2 setup with the power chamber and works pretty derned good. You should gain on the bottom/mid as you stated but overall its not gonna suddenly be a night and day difference especially if you are running a stock motor with 211's?
Not all combo's work so great together....You probably know that though.
211's are unhappy in a stock compression virgin headed motor. They need to be in a high comp motor with some headwork or they will hold you back.
Now you added a pipe that inherently isnt gonna rev out as freely on the top end which is the only place your 211's are working if your motor isnt molestered?
Get it tuned to the 2-1 pipe. When I went from a set of BSS to a 2-1 Rinehart and my bike is tuned with Direct Link it took a good tuner hours to get it just right.
Here is what a high comp 95" with headwork and 211's showing a set of BSS (Blue Line) and a Rinehart 2-1 (Red Line) at 6,000 feet above sea-level. If you are at sea-level or something reasonable and not in the thin air as me you would see about 10% better numbers or 100+Hp/110+Tq on this relatively cheap yet effective and fun to ride build.
If you look at the graph you see the 2-1 simply killing the 2-2 BSS in the midrange or where we typically ride our Harleys. So as it gets up to 5K RPM the BSS reasserts itself and makes a few more ponies.
Without the headwork and compression? These peaky 211's simply will not work as they should and will essentially ride like a 2 stroke dirtbike....Flat, Flat, Flat Peaky, Flat.
Bump the comp on your bike if you havent already via shaving the heads, thinner base gaskets or pistons, have the head porting worked, get it tuned on a dyno by someone who knows what they are doing and you will have a ripper on yer hands.
I was gonna go extreme this winter with a 113 or something crazy but realized that with one hand on the bars (Jockey Shifter) I can hardly hold on as it it is!!
Not all combo's work so great together....You probably know that though.
211's are unhappy in a stock compression virgin headed motor. They need to be in a high comp motor with some headwork or they will hold you back.
Now you added a pipe that inherently isnt gonna rev out as freely on the top end which is the only place your 211's are working if your motor isnt molestered?
Get it tuned to the 2-1 pipe. When I went from a set of BSS to a 2-1 Rinehart and my bike is tuned with Direct Link it took a good tuner hours to get it just right.
Here is what a high comp 95" with headwork and 211's showing a set of BSS (Blue Line) and a Rinehart 2-1 (Red Line) at 6,000 feet above sea-level. If you are at sea-level or something reasonable and not in the thin air as me you would see about 10% better numbers or 100+Hp/110+Tq on this relatively cheap yet effective and fun to ride build.
If you look at the graph you see the 2-1 simply killing the 2-2 BSS in the midrange or where we typically ride our Harleys. So as it gets up to 5K RPM the BSS reasserts itself and makes a few more ponies.
Without the headwork and compression? These peaky 211's simply will not work as they should and will essentially ride like a 2 stroke dirtbike....Flat, Flat, Flat Peaky, Flat.
Bump the comp on your bike if you havent already via shaving the heads, thinner base gaskets or pistons, have the head porting worked, get it tuned on a dyno by someone who knows what they are doing and you will have a ripper on yer hands.
I was gonna go extreme this winter with a 113 or something crazy but realized that with one hand on the bars (Jockey Shifter) I can hardly hold on as it it is!!
Last edited by Chazmanian; Dec 16, 2009 at 09:38 AM.
R.I.P. BROTHER
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,076
Likes: 6
From: Colorado Springs
Here is a great quick reference resource to look at Cams' Compression, Pipes and the dyno results:http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/hplist_twin_cam.htm
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Joined: Jun 2009
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From: orlando, fl
Nice move on the Fat Cat...But the BSS is actually a very good 2-2 setup with the power chamber and works pretty derned good. You should gain on the bottom/mid as you stated but overall its not gonna suddenly be a night and day difference especially if you are running a stock motor with 211's?
Not all combo's work so great together....You probably know that though.
211's are unhappy in a stock compression virgin headed motor. They need to be in a high comp motor with some headwork or they will hold you back.
Now you added a pipe that inherently isnt gonna rev out as freely on the top end which is the only place your 211's are working if your motor isnt molestered?
Get it tuned to the 2-1 pipe. When I went from a set of BSS to a 2-1 Rinehart and my bike is tuned with Direct Link it took a good tuner hours to get it just right.
Here is what a high comp 95" with headwork and 211's showing a set of BSS (Blue Line) and a Rinehart 2-1 (Red Line) at 6,000 feet above sea-level. If you are at sea-level or something reasonable and not in the thin air as me you would see about 10% better numbers or 100+Hp/110+Tq on this relatively cheap yet effective and fun to ride build.
If you look at the graph you see the 2-1 simply killing the 2-2 BSS in the midrange or where we typically ride our Harleys. So as it gets up to 5K RPM the BSS reasserts itself and makes a few more ponies.
Without the headwork and compression? These peaky 211's simply will not work as they should and will essentially ride like a 2 stroke dirtbike....Flat, Flat, Flat Peaky, Flat.
Bump the comp on your bike if you havent already via shaving the heads, thinner base gaskets or pistons, have the head porting worked, get it tuned on a dyno by someone who knows what they are doing and you will have a ripper on yer hands.
I was gonna go extreme this winter with a 113 or something crazy but realized that with one hand on the bars (Jockey Shifter) I can hardly hold on as it it is!!
Not all combo's work so great together....You probably know that though.
211's are unhappy in a stock compression virgin headed motor. They need to be in a high comp motor with some headwork or they will hold you back.
Now you added a pipe that inherently isnt gonna rev out as freely on the top end which is the only place your 211's are working if your motor isnt molestered?
Get it tuned to the 2-1 pipe. When I went from a set of BSS to a 2-1 Rinehart and my bike is tuned with Direct Link it took a good tuner hours to get it just right.
Here is what a high comp 95" with headwork and 211's showing a set of BSS (Blue Line) and a Rinehart 2-1 (Red Line) at 6,000 feet above sea-level. If you are at sea-level or something reasonable and not in the thin air as me you would see about 10% better numbers or 100+Hp/110+Tq on this relatively cheap yet effective and fun to ride build.
If you look at the graph you see the 2-1 simply killing the 2-2 BSS in the midrange or where we typically ride our Harleys. So as it gets up to 5K RPM the BSS reasserts itself and makes a few more ponies.
Without the headwork and compression? These peaky 211's simply will not work as they should and will essentially ride like a 2 stroke dirtbike....Flat, Flat, Flat Peaky, Flat.
Bump the comp on your bike if you havent already via shaving the heads, thinner base gaskets or pistons, have the head porting worked, get it tuned on a dyno by someone who knows what they are doing and you will have a ripper on yer hands.
I was gonna go extreme this winter with a 113 or something crazy but realized that with one hand on the bars (Jockey Shifter) I can hardly hold on as it it is!!
You called it re that SE211. That cam doesn't come alive till you get over 4K rpm, then it's a screamer. I was hoping the Fatcat would add to the low end grunt that was missing. It did that, but it also seems to hold the engine back at high rpm. Right now I'm mostly concerned with the flat spot in the mid range, not so much losing power at the top. The dyno chart when I installed the 211 showed a little dip around 2K but I didn't really notice it. Now, I think the Fatcat makes that dip more noticeable. Overall, I'd like a more consistent throttle response. I'm bringing it back to my mechanic for a dyno tune in the next 2 weeks. He said he should be able to improve things. I don't expect to do any more engine work right now but if I had to do it all over, I probably should have picked a milder cam.
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Joined: Jun 2009
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From: orlando, fl
Here's a pic of the bike with the Fatcat. The dynorun shows the change after adding the SE211 cam back when I had the V&H BSS. I don't have a dyno run with the Fatcat yet. You can clearly see the low end dip, then the takeoff as rpms build with the SE211.
R.I.P. BROTHER
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,076
Likes: 6
From: Colorado Springs
Marty you are lucky you are at sea-level....You would be hard pressed to hit 70HP/80TQ outta that combo up here in Lovely thin air Colorado!!
That being said you look lean off idle IMO....Is it pinging or running hotter than usual?
Does your dyno guy have the ability to add the A/F graph on the bottom of his sheets?
Think compression and some headwork....You are sitting on a bike that wants to make 100/110 easy and cheap!
That being said you look lean off idle IMO....Is it pinging or running hotter than usual?
Does your dyno guy have the ability to add the A/F graph on the bottom of his sheets?
Think compression and some headwork....You are sitting on a bike that wants to make 100/110 easy and cheap!