It is much easier to tune fuel injection if you know what you are doing. I never have to remove my throttle body to add or remove fuel. Plug tuner in, flash new calibration, unplug tuner.

 

The nice thing here is that the tuner can tune the bike with the Super Tuner versus the Power Vision, so I don't need to buy both the dyno tune and the PV at once. I'll need the PV once I do the final drive gearing change, in order to correct the speedometer. At that time, I can load the existing PRE-Power Vision tune into the PV as the "stock" tune that we make any future changes to using the PV.

This is because, as I understand what I have been told about the PV, unlike a PC III or PC V, the Power Vision does NOT modify the signals from the ECM. It changes them at the source by acting on the ECM directly. The "tune' is in the ECM, not the Power Vision. The Power Vision merely stores up to 6 tune files that you load into it, and you can then use the PV to either (a) load any of the stored files to the ECM, or (b) to modify any of the stored files, or (c) to modify the ECM using the PV as the access device to get to the ECM.

Of course, the PV also gives you that display unit that enables you to also see ECM-stored data not available to you otherwise, like head temperature, calculated miles per gallon, etc.

Are there any advantages to having the Power Vision available for the actual dyno tune, if you already have another "access" device like the Super Tuner?

Jim G

 

Evolution Industries called me as a follow-up to my inquiry. When I told them I have been advised to NOT go with a solution that involves losing the compensator off the engine sprocket, they proposed another solution they offer:

A kit that leaves the compensator sprocket alone, and instead provdes a larger clutch basket gear. The kit provides a 49 tooth clutch sprocket to replace the stock 46 tooth, so generates a 6.5% increase in primary ratio. That is almost identical to the 6.7% change you get when changing the final drive transmission pulley from 32T to 30T.

Evolution Indistries offers the kit 2 ways:

The first way includes the 49T clutch sprocket and the required longer primary chain. This approach requires you to drill out the rivets in the stock clutch basket and attach the new sprocket to the stock clutch basket. This kit costs about $550.

The second way provides a clutch sprocket already attached to a billet clutch basket, plus the longer primary chain. This approach eliminates the labor of removing the stock sprocket and installing the new one onto the basket, and also gives you a much stronger clutch basket. This kit costs about $720.

The second kit looks like a better deal.

Compared to the final drive change, the parts cost is greater, but the labor cost is probably significantly less overall, since you need to remove the primary with both solutions, but the final drive solution also requires you to remove the swingarm, rear wheel, etc.

Both solutions require an electronic speedometer correction, since the latest HD speedometer drive apparently no longer uses a simple VSS signal, but rather compares engine RPM to the rpm of a specific shaft within the tranny, a purely mathematical relationship (just like the aftermarket Dakota Instruments electronic versus physical speedometers) that is screwed up by any final overall ratio changes, via EITHER primary or final drive changes. Here, the ability of the Power Vision to directly make the math correction inside the ECM comes nicely into play.

Jim G

 

Ok, few questions.

Have you not had your pcm calibrated since putting the stage 4 on?

Why do you have to remove the swingarm to install a new front sprocket?

I like the 2nd clutch idea, but for me I would just do the front sprocket. I understand you will be paying someone to do this, so you definitely have to factor the cost of labor.

Also, I am not familiar enough with the Screamin Eagle tuners, but if you are going to buy a PV anyways I would let the guy tune with it.

 

What do you mean by "calibrated", 24V? The PCM on my Breakout was flashed with a "temporary" tune for the 1000 mile break-in after the Stage 4 kit was installed, and then modified agin via the dealership dyno tune. Then, it got the safety recall reflash from HD that corrects the overly optimistic fuel level sensor that let people run out of fuel on the freeway with no "low fuel" light ever coming on.

Two different people, one of them Mike Lozano, have told me that on a Softail, the swingarm has to be at least unfastened and moved slightly to make the pulley and belt change, and that requires removing the rear tire assembly first.

I THINK the combined cost of new 30T pulley and new shorter final drive belt will be low enough compared to the Evo Industries billet clutch kit that despite the higher labor for the final drive change, the total cost will still be lower for the final drive change versus the primary change. However consider too:

- With the primary change, you get a much stronger billet clutch basket

- With the primary change, when you need a new belt, whetehr through normal wear or through "stone got it" incident, you still use the "standard" belt that every other Breakout uses, whereas with the final drive gearing change, you have to remember to tell the dealer, and he has to find, the special shorter belt. That is a notable disadvantage when out of town on a long trip.

Lots to consider. But, I have plenty of time. The short term goal is to first get a proper tune into the Breakout. Mike Lozano is suspicious that the dealer technician tried to stay within EPA-compliant tune parameters, despite the kit clearly being marked as "race" and therefore non-EPA compliant. Mike saw plenty of 14.7 AFR targets in the tune when he used the Super Pro Tuner to disable the automatic compression releases for the cold cranking pressure test, and he wonders if the technician adjusted timing at ALL.

As for the tuning, the advnatges of the Power Vision don't really come into play on a hand-done dyno tune. In that scenario, the Power Vision, or the Super Tuner, is merely providing licensed access to the actual ECM, and the tuning software for each is more than adequate to handle the dyno tune. And both the Super Tuner Pro and the Power Vision can store a copy of the final custom tune within them. It appears to me that the big advantages of the Power Vision come into play in different scenarios, like:

- You can add an auto tune capability to a Power Vision, but if I am getting a dyno tune by a master tuner, why would I want to do that?

- You can store up to 6 tuning files simultaneously in the Power Vision, but I likely won't need that capability

- You can correct a speedometer via Power Vision (that I can use when I get the gearing change done, but don't need the PV until then?)

- You can optionally mount the Power Vision DISPLAY on the handlebar and display engine and driveline parameters not available any other way (e.g. MPG, head temperature, actual dynamic spark advance, etc), which I MAY be interested in, but again, I can get the PV anytime, don't need it immediately

Am I seeing anything incorrectly here, 24V? I am just in the "learning" process on the Power Vision capabilities and uses.

Jim G

Jim G

 

Usually, when I get a new motorcycle, the first thing I do is remove the compensator...I have run a straight sprocket in my bikes for decades.

No problems.

 

I'm surprised Mike Lazano would steer you away from a compensator considering the pro stocks he raced don't use them. Did he give a reason why? It's your bike and therefore your choice I just tend to not listen to peoples advice that don't have a legitimate reason to the contrary. Just saying "I don't advise it" would not cut it for me.

 

Mark, I think Mike is differentiating between pro stock racing use and normal everyday use by a non-racer. He seemed to think running without a compensator is both uncomfortable and potentially destructive to drivetrain components.

I realize it is a highly controversial issue, especially so since everyone seems to agree that the HD factory compensators soon become both noisy and shortlived.

Jim G

 

Calibrating the PCM means flashing a new calibration, ie firmware, to the PCM. You have had a calibration flashed. That was what I was asking, so you are nnot running around on the factory calibration with the stage 4.

I'm not sure who Mike Lozano is, but the factory service manual made no mention of removing the swingarm to remove the front sprocket, and I can't see why it would be necessary. I can see having to remove the rear wheel to get the belt off though.

As for having a different belt, before deciding, maybe look into the belt size thing a little more. Perhaps the shorter belt is also used on a different model, and might be more common than you think?

As for why you would want the Power Vision, and auto tune, that is easy. This way you could tune the bike yourself, as you ride it, on the street. There is nothing wrong with dyno tuning, but nothing beat real world tuning on the street in the environment the bike is used in. Obviously there are some cells you may not be brave enough to fill, but you can interpolate these from other cells near them if necessary. if the bike already has a decent base tune, using auto tune to get you the rest of the way isn't a bad idea.

If that is too much for you I get it, but then I would still get the PV and also get your gearing figured out before going to the dyno. The change in gearing will change the tune a little too. Might as well have it all handled in one session rather than going back again later.

 

Why? Was something improved?