No Device: scatter graphs and statistics
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Road Warrior
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,923
Likes: 587
From: Alorton, Illinois
No, I would rather stick to the HD Delphi system on a HD EFI forum. Andy understands that more data is needed than just what is in the scatter plot screen shot. That is why he asked Gordon for more info and stated he needed to look at more than what was being presented.
Is the AFF being 5% out, an indication that it just happened or that it has been set that way after miles and tanks of fuel. It is the adaptive that is learned and stored. Or did the AFF get hit that hard in a 15 minute ride. With no time stamp on the data presented. Any ones guess is as good as the next.
If it is a TT enabled calibration and 10 minutes of riding. I would say that TT isn't being used correctly and the base calibration needs to be closer before TT can be enabled and run effectively, because those AFF's aren't going to be saved and each time the bike is ran. It will need to adapt to this just once again.
There is way too much of the unknown for me to say one way or the other.
To an extent YES, I think it's important for people to realize that there is more to this than just the tune. Here's a question, if the above plot was the result of a mechanical issue, and the owner used a plot and came to the conclusion that TT would be the answer. What would TT do in this case? It would add fuel, correct? Point is, it's not always in the tune. You posted the graph and didn't give enough information for me to answer your question.
Road Master
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,177
Likes: 23
In that case it was a bad tune. The guy id get the motor dialed in with data logging. He later went to TT for something to play with. He is now getting a TT for his other Harley. He no longer uses the tuning shop that declared the tune "Perfect".
Thread Starter
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Road Warrior
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,923
Likes: 587
From: Alorton, Illinois
So, this is just about pushing TT and bashing on tuning shops. I thought it was about learning how to read scatter graphs and changing the tune based on what we see with scatter plots?
.....and you wonder why people don't want to play along. It still about trolling and pushing an agenda.
Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,114
Likes: 666
No such thing as a perfect tune since AFR/lambda are moving targets the system constantly monitors and adjusts as conditions (weather, tps, rpms, map, fuel formula, air quality, etc) change to keep as close to targets as possible.
JMO,
Bob
Road Master
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,177
Likes: 23
Consider the next screen shot. This is how hand tuning and for that matter, Autotunes work.
If you use the formula
VE New = VE * CLI * AFF / 10000
and then
VE Fuel Adj = 100*VE New/VE
You end up with VE Fuel Adj as a percentage just like the code is using to generate the VE New Front and rear. Here is what it ends up looking like in a scatter plot on the left. On the right is the AFF I posted earlier. Notice how they look very similar but there are places with clear differences.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/...Fuel%20Adj.png
If I was hand tuning this bike, this would be a huge help. Places that are clearly blue need fuel added by increasing the VE numbers. Red indicates we need to pull fuel in those areas.
Andy
If you use the formula
VE New = VE * CLI * AFF / 10000
and then
VE Fuel Adj = 100*VE New/VE
You end up with VE Fuel Adj as a percentage just like the code is using to generate the VE New Front and rear. Here is what it ends up looking like in a scatter plot on the left. On the right is the AFF I posted earlier. Notice how they look very similar but there are places with clear differences.
http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/...Fuel%20Adj.png
If I was hand tuning this bike, this would be a huge help. Places that are clearly blue need fuel added by increasing the VE numbers. Red indicates we need to pull fuel in those areas.
Andy
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Road Warrior
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,923
Likes: 587
From: Alorton, Illinois
Why bother with any of this? You have stated you don't like to use NB besides in the area of 14.6-14.8. You have also stated you like to run your sporty the leanest at 14-13.8. So, we need to get some WB data. If you are going to buy WB's why not just buy the target tune?
Looks like under your own admission that your bike never really ran good until you put on TT, and this is after you tried to tune it with WB's, scatter plots, and your formula.
Sounds to me like you are trying to just sell your product and after all the time and effort goes into learning your product. They could just install a TT and have it run better. Why not just go straight to TT. Map VE's with AT-TT. Enable a TT calibrations and go ride the bike?
Seems like the MLV and scatter plots are just a wasted step in getting the bike to where you want it.
Looks like under your own admission that your bike never really ran good until you put on TT, and this is after you tried to tune it with WB's, scatter plots, and your formula.
Sounds to me like you are trying to just sell your product and after all the time and effort goes into learning your product. They could just install a TT and have it run better. Why not just go straight to TT. Map VE's with AT-TT. Enable a TT calibrations and go ride the bike?
Seems like the MLV and scatter plots are just a wasted step in getting the bike to where you want it.
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Road Master
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,177
Likes: 23
For me, the big advantage when running Target Tune was from changes in the closed loop PID settings. I could run closed loop and not have the bike throb caused by the PW changing huge percentages. TT have different "Hidden" PID settings.
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Road Warrior
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,923
Likes: 587
From: Alorton, Illinois
Sounds like another reason to skip the MLV tail chase and just go with TT.