No Device: HD/Delphi EFI Tuning Basics
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From: poway
See post #102 in this thread.
The Integrator is the first of many parts of Closed Loop Fuel control. You will see it moving all the time for the most part in Closed loop. In steady state operation is typically where it will settle down. Base on the feedback system the Integrator will begin to adjust and it is allowed to move around with no influence on the system until it reaches set points and then if it stays out too much, for too long, the Adaptive will start to adjust, provided Adaptive learning is enabled. Adaptive values are then stored in the cells as they are set-up. If there is no cell for it to be stored then its gone. If you look at my crude chart a few post back you can see that one Adaptive cell covers many VE cells. You get one adaptive value, in one adaptive cell, so if it is correct for one VE cell, you had better hope it is correct for all the other VE cells in that adaptive cell range. When you shut the engine off the adaptive values are stored so the next start-up they are there to be used.
The Integrator is the first of many parts of Closed Loop Fuel control. You will see it moving all the time for the most part in Closed loop. In steady state operation is typically where it will settle down. Base on the feedback system the Integrator will begin to adjust and it is allowed to move around with no influence on the system until it reaches set points and then if it stays out too much, for too long, the Adaptive will start to adjust, provided Adaptive learning is enabled. Adaptive values are then stored in the cells as they are set-up. If there is no cell for it to be stored then its gone. If you look at my crude chart a few post back you can see that one Adaptive cell covers many VE cells. You get one adaptive value, in one adaptive cell, so if it is correct for one VE cell, you had better hope it is correct for all the other VE cells in that adaptive cell range. When you shut the engine off the adaptive values are stored so the next start-up they are there to be used.
I reread #102 and looked at the table in #111. Some questions come up..
You say that the integrator does not remember anything.. Does this mean that the integrator only works on the current cell that is like set by map and RPM? As soon as the map or RPM changes the integrator continues to integrate using the current value it has? Or are you saying the integrator values are in a table based on map and RPM but the values are volatile. In other words they are lost on power cycle..
When looking at the table you posted, are the size of the adaptive offset blocks configurable?
I get the idea that the adaptive number applies to all the locations in the box.
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This is interesting stuff Steve but you know me.. Real interested in the details..
I reread #102 and looked at the table in #111. Some questions come up..
You say that the integrator does not remember anything.. Does this mean that the integrator only works on the current cell that is like set by map and RPM? As soon as the map or RPM changes the integrator continues to integrate using the current value it has? Or are you saying the integrator values are in a table based on map and RPM but the values are volatile. In other words they are lost on power cycle..
When looking at the table you posted, are the size of the adaptive offset blocks configurable?
I get the idea that the adaptive number applies to all the locations in the box.
I reread #102 and looked at the table in #111. Some questions come up..
You say that the integrator does not remember anything.. Does this mean that the integrator only works on the current cell that is like set by map and RPM? As soon as the map or RPM changes the integrator continues to integrate using the current value it has? Or are you saying the integrator values are in a table based on map and RPM but the values are volatile. In other words they are lost on power cycle..
When looking at the table you posted, are the size of the adaptive offset blocks configurable?
I get the idea that the adaptive number applies to all the locations in the box.
Adaptive looks at the Integrator and then adjust itself up or down as necessary to try and get the Integrator back to a value of 100, if it is enabled and your within a cells limits. So you can have adaptive enabled but no cell at your test point, so it doesn't work!
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From: poway
For lack of better words the Integrator is allowed to run wild until it hits it's limits. So as an example the engine is at 2000 RPM and 40 kPa. The Integrator adjust to a value of 125 and holds, at steady state operation. Now you change the load such that the engine is now at 2000 RPM and 50 Kpa the integrator starts changing from it's position of 125 that it was using and over time it moves down to 80 and holds at steady state. None of this is remembered, its just running along real time. So the next time you go back to 2000 RPM and 40 kPa it has to get back to 125 from where ever it is at.
Adaptive looks at the Integrator and then adjust itself up or down as necessary to try and get the Integrator back to a value of 100, if it is enabled and your within a cells limits. So you can have adaptive enabled but no cell at your test point, so it doesn't work!
Adaptive looks at the Integrator and then adjust itself up or down as necessary to try and get the Integrator back to a value of 100, if it is enabled and your within a cells limits. So you can have adaptive enabled but no cell at your test point, so it doesn't work!
Got it that the integrator is always processing the last samples..
The adaptive system collects the integrator value in specific groups of cells to determine if the group needs adjustment..
The range of cells must be enabled and low level configuration is done by flash tuner supplier.. So is the size and range of the cells configurable by the supplier?
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Again good stuff.
Got it that the integrator is always processing the last samples..
The adaptive system collects the integrator value in specific groups of cells to determine if the group needs adjustment..
The range of cells must be enabled and low level configuration is done by flash tuner supplier.. So is the size and range of the cells configurable by the supplier?
Got it that the integrator is always processing the last samples..
The adaptive system collects the integrator value in specific groups of cells to determine if the group needs adjustment..
The range of cells must be enabled and low level configuration is done by flash tuner supplier.. So is the size and range of the cells configurable by the supplier?
Within limits, yes the adaptive cells are configurable. The max amount is 24 cells. I have seen plenty of aftermarket calibrations where they are setup with only 2 - 4 working and many with none working.
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From: poway
The Adaptive does not collect the Integrator value. This is key to understanding this part. Adaptive adjust as the engine runs so if the adaptive cell in your calibration covers 20 different VE cells it is only an accurate value of that VE cell at that time. Now if the calibration is done correctly, each of the VE cells in one adaptive cell want/need the exact same correction, at least that is how you are supposed to do it!
Within limits, yes the adaptive cells are configurable. The max amount is 24 cells. I have seen plenty of aftermarket calibrations where they are setup with only 2 - 4 working and many with none working.
Within limits, yes the adaptive cells are configurable. The max amount is 24 cells. I have seen plenty of aftermarket calibrations where they are setup with only 2 - 4 working and many with none working.
Ok Maybe "collect" is not the proper term.. What criteria is used to determine that the adaptive value should be updated?? I was thinking something like the integrator value was above say 125% for some time that the adaptive value would adjust to bring that down.
If the current value for the adaptive value is set at say 100% and the integrator is continually seeing 125%, does it go whole hog and set the adaptive value to 125%?
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From: TN
While we are discussing this area, I need to ask a question. Is there a correlation between the cli and the aff. Logged some data, an example, @ 2750 rpm 45-65 kpa the cli was 100.7, 101.05, 101. 07, 100.97, 100.43. The aff was 93.59, 94.22, 94.83, 95.31, 96.00. I thought with the cli close to 100 the aff would be a lot closer. Any input would be a great help, thanks
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From: SE Louisiana
While we are discussing this area, I need to ask a question. Is there a correlation between the cli and the aff. Logged some data, an example, @ 2750 rpm 45-65 kpa the cli was 100.7, 101.05, 101. 07, 100.97, 100.43. The aff was 93.59, 94.22, 94.83, 95.31, 96.00. I thought with the cli close to 100 the aff would be a lot closer. Any input would be a great help, thanks
Adaptive moves to keep the cli in range, or closer to 100, but does not apply until you turn the bike off.
Then after applied, and if conditions are close to the same as the last run, adaptive should be closer to 100.
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The way I understand it is,-- please correct me if wrong.
Adaptive moves to keep the cli in range, or closer to 100, but does not apply until you turn the bike off.
Then after applied, and if conditions are close to the same as the last run, adaptive should be closer to 100.
Adaptive moves to keep the cli in range, or closer to 100, but does not apply until you turn the bike off.
Then after applied, and if conditions are close to the same as the last run, adaptive should be closer to 100.
Adaptive moves to keep the Integrator in range, or closer to 100, it is applied all the time.
The stored Adaptive value is used each time you come back in its cell range.
So if your in adaptive cell #4 and it has a value of 125 stored in it, that is going to be applied to whatever the ECM is calculating at the time.
Last edited by Steve Cole; Jul 31, 2016 at 11:44 AM.
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Thread Starter
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HD EFI Guru
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While we are discussing this area, I need to ask a question. Is there a correlation between the cli and the aff. Logged some data, an example, @ 2750 rpm 45-65 kpa the cli was 100.7, 101.05, 101. 07, 100.97, 100.43. The aff was 93.59, 94.22, 94.83, 95.31, 96.00. I thought with the cli close to 100 the aff would be a lot closer. Any input would be a great help, thanks
Numbers less than 100 are reducing the calculated VE and number greater than 100 are increasing the calculated VE.
100 can be expressed as 1.00 but that would reduce the range of values. The HD ECM has limits placed on both the Adaptive and Integrator. The Adaptive is typically ~ +/- 10% and the Integrator is typically ~ +/- 25%
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I understand the part about adaptive working on a group of cells based on how it's configured..
Ok Maybe "collect" is not the proper term.. What criteria is used to determine that the adaptive value should be updated?? I was thinking something like the integrator value was above say 125% for some time that the adaptive value would adjust to bring that down.
If the current value for the adaptive value is set at say 100% and the integrator is continually seeing 125%, does it go whole hog and set the adaptive value to 125%?
Ok Maybe "collect" is not the proper term.. What criteria is used to determine that the adaptive value should be updated?? I was thinking something like the integrator value was above say 125% for some time that the adaptive value would adjust to bring that down.
If the current value for the adaptive value is set at say 100% and the integrator is continually seeing 125%, does it go whole hog and set the adaptive value to 125%?
One other thing you all need to understand is the Adaptive is set to 100 by default and until the cell is active it will report 100 forever. So if the Adaptive is off it will report 100, if cells are not setup correctly they will report 100 and if they are setup properly and working, they will still report 100 if the VE setting is correct!
The trick is knowing what state the Adaptive is in, so you can know when to use it!