No Device: HD/Delphi EFI Tuning Basics
Road Warrior
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,368
Likes: 27
From: Australia
steve, the thread seems to be heading off in a direction to be mostly about sensors
yet I buy a bike off the showroom floor back in 2010 or today in 2016 and they run very well,
are we done and dusted on the HD/Delphi ECM specs/features?
yet I buy a bike off the showroom floor back in 2010 or today in 2016 and they run very well,
are we done and dusted on the HD/Delphi ECM specs/features?
Thread Starter
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HD EFI Guru
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,488
Likes: 4,773
I hope not, and that is not where I hope it ends. That said, it is where it has to start. If you do not understand sensors and the limits they have, there is no way you can understand what those limits are and what they cause. The ECM has to live with limits and once you understand them I hope it allows people to understand tuning better, but there is a lot more that has to be covered. To me it's no different than building a house, you start with a good foundation and work you way up from there.
Road Warrior
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,368
Likes: 27
From: Australia
So since I used a MAP sensor as an example, let's look at the specifications for the Delphi MAP sensors. All of the current model sensors have the same error specifications from what I have found but some of the older models are worse. The two attachments show the total output pressure error for Delphi Manifold Absolute Pressure Sensor including error due to linearity, hysteresis and ratiometricity for one chart and the second one shows the the temperature multiplier to the allowable pressure error over the operating temperature range.
As is clearly shown the possible sensor error changes based on the range of the reading. At 20 kPa the possible error is +/- 2.4 kPa. So what this means is the error in the sensor when the ECM thinks its getting 20 kPa may truely be off by +/- 2.4 kPa. Now add to that, the error due to temperature and you can see it just gets a bigger error.
This means the calculations using MAP are going to be effected as the reading may vary by the total error amount from the sensor at any one time. So this means the timing calculations change when you think they should not and the fuel calculations change when you think they should not. This is just the way it is and there is nothing you can do about it!
As is clearly shown the possible sensor error changes based on the range of the reading. At 20 kPa the possible error is +/- 2.4 kPa. So what this means is the error in the sensor when the ECM thinks its getting 20 kPa may truely be off by +/- 2.4 kPa. Now add to that, the error due to temperature and you can see it just gets a bigger error.
This means the calculations using MAP are going to be effected as the reading may vary by the total error amount from the sensor at any one time. So this means the timing calculations change when you think they should not and the fuel calculations change when you think they should not. This is just the way it is and there is nothing you can do about it!
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Dec 2005
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From: poway
I think what is more important is finding out what are issues of those tolerances. What kind of problems do they cause? Are there other tolerances that need to be looked at?
Road Master
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 804
Likes: 237
From: TN
For all those in the know, why haven't they developed a nb sensor to cover a broader range. I imagine that some of the major racing circuits like nascar, f1, Indy and others run richer than what our bikes run at. Just curious or is it an EPA type of scenario?
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 19,921
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From: poway
Isn't that called a wide band sensor? Narrow band get a narrow band. Wide band gets a wide band..
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Road Master
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 804
Likes: 237
From: TN
Okay, so maybe a better choice of words, a wb type of sensor that works with the speed/accuracy of the narrow band, or maybe a combo system that incorporates both type of sensors?
Road Warrior
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,923
Likes: 587
From: Alorton, Illinois
Because they can't. A wide band is a narrow band with a reference pumping current. That's what allows it to read in a wider range, but the downside is. It takes longer because it has to take the time to deal with the reference. BUT this wideband is still really made to and is the most accurate at stioch. It is capable of reading a wider range, but there is no free lunch.
...and this is only the 4.2. Plenty of other sensors styles on the market, but the 4.2 is what is in this industry for the most part. These are not the sensors that are on cars or what is being used in nascar or F1.
...and this is only the 4.2. Plenty of other sensors styles on the market, but the 4.2 is what is in this industry for the most part. These are not the sensors that are on cars or what is being used in nascar or F1.