No Device: HD/Delphi EFI Tuning Basics
Road Warrior
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,325
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From: Edinburgh UK
Carrying on with tolerances...
Injectors? we hear that stock ones are not matched, yet some seem to be checking the pulse widths in the logs.
Does anyone know just what the HD spec on these are, just to put those numbers in perspective?
And just to add, how relevant is reading pulse width in a log anyway, when there are a hell of a lot more pulses than are sampled by the log recorder?
Injectors? we hear that stock ones are not matched, yet some seem to be checking the pulse widths in the logs.
Does anyone know just what the HD spec on these are, just to put those numbers in perspective?
And just to add, how relevant is reading pulse width in a log anyway, when there are a hell of a lot more pulses than are sampled by the log recorder?
Last edited by Gordon61; Jul 13, 2016 at 05:59 PM.
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HD EFI Guru
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Carrying on with tolerances...
Injectors? we hear that stock ones are not matched, yet some seem to be checking the pulse widths in the logs.
Does anyone know just what the HD spec on these are, just to put those numbers in perspective?
And just to add, how relevant is reading pulse width in a log anyway, when there are a hell of a lot more pulses than are sampled by the log recorder?
Injectors? we hear that stock ones are not matched, yet some seem to be checking the pulse widths in the logs.
Does anyone know just what the HD spec on these are, just to put those numbers in perspective?
And just to add, how relevant is reading pulse width in a log anyway, when there are a hell of a lot more pulses than are sampled by the log recorder?
These are great observations!
You need to look at how fast the logger you are using is taking samples but you also need to understand that the ECM only supplies the information "as it can". What this means is certain things will only get updated at certain speeds internally. So let's use engine temperature as an example. The ECM knows the sensor is going to change slowly as its response time is long. So why bother to use time up by reading it quickly? The ECM knows better and just doesn't do it, so the value is read at say twice a second and the rest of the time nothing happens, no updates internally. So if you log data at 3 times a second the ECM will report the same temperature right or wrong twice due to when the reading gets updated internally. So if the logger runs at 30 times a second you will see the same value over and over again as the ECM just keeps sending the same value until the update occurs internally. Where as RPM changes rapidly so the ECM knows it has to do it's internal updates quickly so it can know what to do. RPM on a HD ECM is update ~ every 0.008 seconds. That's 8 mS, so that means ~125 updates per second internally so a logger running at 12 frames per second is missing ~ 112 updates per second. Maybe this begins to paint a picture that you can understand now.
Injectors are hard to give a specification to as company's rate them by there own internal testing methods. In general the flow at a given test point is +/- 4% as a standard rating but as I said the test point is not always the same from supplier to supplier. When we were developing calibrations for HD we always install a set of known test injectors and did not use the production stuff.
One also needs to remember that if you are using one of the tuning aids like Vtune you are putting corrections into the VE table for all the parts on the bike NOT just the real air flow.
Last edited by Steve Cole; Jul 13, 2016 at 07:05 PM.
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I see no one has any questions on what has been discussed so let's move on to the O2 sensor. The sensor itself is pretty straight forward. It measures the amount of O2 present in the exhaust or lack there of. It does this by comparing the O2 in the surrounding air and comparing it to the amount found by the sensing element in the exhaust. It then outputs a signal that the ECM reads in.
There are two types in use today Narrow Band and BroadBand. There is also a third true Wide Band too but those are not used in the aftermarket field as there are costly. So for this discussion let's stick with what people are using which is the Bosch LSU series BroadBand.
The early larger (18mm) NB non heated was used until about 2012 by then they had pretty much changed over to the newer small heated NB sensor. All Touring bike changed over in 2010. The early non heated sensor has a response time of ~ 100 - 150 mS. New, they are faster and as they age they slow down some. The newer small (12mm) O2 sensor have a response time of ~ 10 - 12 mS. The Bosch LSU series sensors have a response time of ~ 220 - 250 mS. This is due in part to the fact that it is truly a NB sensor with extra provisions added to pump O2 into the sensor to allow it to read the Broader Range.
When using any of these sensors, along with there speed they also have other requirements to make them work accurately. Poor placement in the exhaust stream will screw them all up!
There are two types in use today Narrow Band and BroadBand. There is also a third true Wide Band too but those are not used in the aftermarket field as there are costly. So for this discussion let's stick with what people are using which is the Bosch LSU series BroadBand.
The early larger (18mm) NB non heated was used until about 2012 by then they had pretty much changed over to the newer small heated NB sensor. All Touring bike changed over in 2010. The early non heated sensor has a response time of ~ 100 - 150 mS. New, they are faster and as they age they slow down some. The newer small (12mm) O2 sensor have a response time of ~ 10 - 12 mS. The Bosch LSU series sensors have a response time of ~ 220 - 250 mS. This is due in part to the fact that it is truly a NB sensor with extra provisions added to pump O2 into the sensor to allow it to read the Broader Range.
When using any of these sensors, along with there speed they also have other requirements to make them work accurately. Poor placement in the exhaust stream will screw them all up!
Road Master
Joined: Nov 2015
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From: georgia
Steve are you willing to discuss the exhaust systems that still don't put the sensors in the proper place? Or is it easier to list the ones that do? Or is it dependent on the state of build? Need more input!
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From: N. Atlanta Burbs
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Stock engines with stock cam timing are much less sensitive to o2 placement and depth than engines with performance parts (i.e.: cams) and open exhaust systems.
This is one reason why some say they have no issues while others can't seem to get reliable readings from their o2 sensors.
It makes absolutely NO difference which o2 system (N/B, BB, or WB) is used...if o2 sensor placement and subsequent readings are bogus, proper auto-type tuning cannot be accomplished?
Experience helps a tuner to determine and decide what and when the sensors are reliable to get good closed loop tuning and running.
Bob
This is one reason why some say they have no issues while others can't seem to get reliable readings from their o2 sensors.
It makes absolutely NO difference which o2 system (N/B, BB, or WB) is used...if o2 sensor placement and subsequent readings are bogus, proper auto-type tuning cannot be accomplished?
Experience helps a tuner to determine and decide what and when the sensors are reliable to get good closed loop tuning and running.
Bob
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From: Catalina AZ
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Road Warrior
Joined: Jun 2015
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From: Edinburgh UK
...so long as you don't re enable closed loop running or the feedback loop is going to be all to hell as well presumably??
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If people would like a discussion on O2 placement, we can talk about how they are supposed to be installed and what effects them, so that you can better determine if they look right for yourself on your system.
These are the things that people need to be looking at and understanding, that the ECM has limits placed in it so it can tell when something is going wrong. Move the limits way up and it doesn't have a chance to know one way or the other, just as moving them in real tight and you end up saying, something is wrong when it really isn't.
All sensors have a area (range) they are better in than other areas, so isn't it best to try and stay working in the range the sensor is the best it can be?
These are the things that people need to be looking at and understanding, that the ECM has limits placed in it so it can tell when something is going wrong. Move the limits way up and it doesn't have a chance to know one way or the other, just as moving them in real tight and you end up saying, something is wrong when it really isn't.
All sensors have a area (range) they are better in than other areas, so isn't it best to try and stay working in the range the sensor is the best it can be?