No Device: Auto-Tune... Does it really exist?
Road Warrior
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,325
Likes: 140
From: Edinburgh UK
If only there were such a thing...
But it depends on how you define auto-tune, right? AT doesn't have to mean a device to automagically optimize all aspects of your engine. Just like the point made about the automatic transmission, certain elements of a multistep process no longer require human intervention. 'Tune' is also open to interpretation - used as a noun as in a complete 'tune' for my bike, or a verb as in 'I tuned my VE'?
But it depends on how you define auto-tune, right? AT doesn't have to mean a device to automagically optimize all aspects of your engine. Just like the point made about the automatic transmission, certain elements of a multistep process no longer require human intervention. 'Tune' is also open to interpretation - used as a noun as in a complete 'tune' for my bike, or a verb as in 'I tuned my VE'?
User expectation vs marketing kind of thing
My vote is there seems to be no such thing but I don't know enough about all of the various devices
Last edited by Gordon61; Jul 12, 2016 at 06:53 AM.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 19,921
Likes: 8,027
From: poway
What Steve is describing is a process that automates tuning on a Dyno. It's pretty cool but still it doesn't continually optimise performance while driving down the road. Dephi systems are smart enough to back off timing and adjust fueling near stoichiometric afr mainly to protect the motor from running too lean and to reduce emissions..
I've not messed with PVs autotune but thought it still requires used intervention update maps. I do remember discussion about long and short term fuel trims, so maybe it does?
Tmax is simply a full time, closed loop system for fueling.. It will adjust each cylinder injector pulse width until the sniffed o2 calculates out to right AFR in the tables. It does nothing to actively adapt timing based on sensing detonation like the ion sense on the Delphi systems..
I've not messed with PVs autotune but thought it still requires used intervention update maps. I do remember discussion about long and short term fuel trims, so maybe it does?
Tmax is simply a full time, closed loop system for fueling.. It will adjust each cylinder injector pulse width until the sniffed o2 calculates out to right AFR in the tables. It does nothing to actively adapt timing based on sensing detonation like the ion sense on the Delphi systems..
Road Warrior
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,923
Likes: 587
From: Alorton, Illinois
What Steve is describing is a process that automates tuning on a Dyno. It's pretty cool but still it doesn't continually optimise performance while driving down the road. Dephi systems are smart enough to back off timing and adjust fueling near stoichiometric afr mainly to protect the motor from running too lean and to reduce emissions..
I've not messed with PVs autotune but thought it still requires used intervention update maps. I do remember discussion about long and short term fuel trims, so maybe it does?
Tmax is simply a full time, closed loop system for fueling.. It will adjust each cylinder injector pulse width until the sniffed o2 calculates out to right AFR in the tables. It does nothing to actively adapt timing based on sensing detonation like the ion sense on the Delphi systems..
I've not messed with PVs autotune but thought it still requires used intervention update maps. I do remember discussion about long and short term fuel trims, so maybe it does?
Tmax is simply a full time, closed loop system for fueling.. It will adjust each cylinder injector pulse width until the sniffed o2 calculates out to right AFR in the tables. It does nothing to actively adapt timing based on sensing detonation like the ion sense on the Delphi systems..
I don't see a difference in using the dyno or the street when working with a flash based tuner. It is still collect, change, and reflash. There are different strategies for collecting. Differences in changing. Doesn't matter if it is using a program to generate new VE's or hand changing VE's. Using the program that came with the tuner or using a third party program. The 5 flash tuners that I have used. It is all the same. Collect, change, and reflash.
Here is the directions from the FP3 on how to "auto tune"
How do I autotune?
Answer: To autotune your map, you must first select a map for a pipe similar to yours and program it into your bike. Next select autotune from the menu and start the process. This will make changes to your map and flash those into the bike. Now go out and ride. The more varied types of riding you can do (stop and go, steady state, uphill, downhill, low rpm, high rpm, low and high throttle angles, etc.) the better. It is possible to get a decent tune in as little as 20 minutes, but we recommend you run through one full tank of gas before finishing. Once you press the finish autotune button, your bike will be reflashed with the new settings and you are done.
http://fuelpak.vanceandhines.com/faq.html
Seems like a whole lot of things you have to do. So, it can "automatically" do it for you. The verbiage is a bit different between the top 5, and 3 of them call it "auto" something, but it is the same if they call it smart tune, Vtune or auto tune. Doesn't matter if that is auto tune basic, pro, or target tune.
Road Warrior
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,923
Likes: 587
From: Alorton, Illinois
If you are talking Target Tune. It does use the trims to adjust on the fly. Just like the stock Delphi does. While it is in TT mode running down the street. What and how much of the trims it is using? Different topic. BUT Just like the other flash based system that use the trim tables. You first need to center the trims by adjusting the VE tables for that combination. Hooking up a 0-5 volt 4.2 and controller over a 0-1 volt narrow band doesn't change the strategy of how to do this or how it runs. It is still using the sensor as a switching sensor.
Zeroing or centering trims is all we are mainly doing when we are using these auto generating VE programs. Some do more than just VE's but they all started there. That brings up the question of: is this really what tuning is or just part of it? None of these address cranking fuel, warm up enrichment, acceleration or deceleration tables, IAC crank........
So, what we really have are auto generating VE programs that will get you half way to a tuned motorcycle. That might be a bit long and un catchy to put on the box.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 19,921
Likes: 8,027
From: poway
If you are talking Target Tune. It does use the trims to adjust on the fly. Just like the stock Delphi does. While it is in TT mode running down the street. What and how much of the trims it is using? Different topic. BUT Just like the other flash based system that use the trim tables. You first need to center the trims by adjusting the VE tables for that combination. Hooking up a 0-5 volt 4.2 and controller over a 0-1 volt narrow band doesn't change the strategy of how to do this or how it runs. It is still using the sensor as a switching sensor.
Zeroing or centering trims is all we are mainly doing when we are using these auto generating VE programs. Some do more than just VE's but they all started there. That brings up the question of: is this really what tuning is or just part of it? None of these address cranking fuel, warm up enrichment, acceleration or deceleration tables, IAC crank........
So, what we really have are auto generating VE programs that will get you half way to a tuned motorcycle. That might be a bit long and un catchy to put on the box.
Zeroing or centering trims is all we are mainly doing when we are using these auto generating VE programs. Some do more than just VE's but they all started there. That brings up the question of: is this really what tuning is or just part of it? None of these address cranking fuel, warm up enrichment, acceleration or deceleration tables, IAC crank........
So, what we really have are auto generating VE programs that will get you half way to a tuned motorcycle. That might be a bit long and un catchy to put on the box.
Do you still have to do the recording of data to update the VEs or can you just read out the trims and use them to adjust the VE tables?
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Club Member
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From: N. Atlanta Burbs
Last off topic posts were pruned and moved here:
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Joined: Nov 2012
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From: Upstate New York
I`m still waiting for Mr. Cole to reply to this question.
